What the FUCK is Horizontal progression supposed to look like in practice...

What the FUCK is Horizontal progression supposed to look like in practice? How can you keep a playerbase if you remove a leveling system? I keep seeing people mention MMO's/rpgs should have a horizontal progression, but what are you supposed to do if dungeons don't level you up? If all gear is equal then what's the point to getting new gear? Horizontal progression can not work in any RPG/MMO imo, there'd be no reason to do anything.

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wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon
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YOU get gud, user. YOU learn to play better and YOU get 'stronger'. Not your character.

/thread

Play GW2. After lvl 80 your build variety opens up and assuming you have HoT and PoF you can expand it even further with Elite Specs. This is my Deadeye with the Perfected Rifle.

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You realize you haven't answered my question right? I log into game so that I can level up and get better stuff. If we remove those things, what am I logging in for? What is the point to playing better if game isn't rewarding me with better stuff? What is the point to doing a dungeon if you don't get anything from completing it?

Look at Warframe

What do you do after you got your perfected rifle though? Once you got your build going, what's the point in playing? You already hit the max level, you already got your gear. So there's nothing left to do?

That only works with pre-determined characters with different skillsets. Customizability is the cornerstone of RPGs and as long as your character is customizable there will need to be some kind of equipment or stat-based progression.

The other option is to get rid of the concept of a "continuous" character and just make an MMO roguelike. But that ruins the "role-playing" aspect.

Horizontal progression could open up new builds or playstyles that are sidegrades, like a warrior speccing into dps or tanking.

>GW2
Might as well tell him to get a time machine and go back to GW1's during its prime.

GW1 would be a better example. Progression is mainly cosmetic and showing off e penis

Can't you have both?
Dark Souls does it pretty well.

Its esoteric nonsense

Guild Wars (not 2) did it well. You just need a shitload of variety to the gameplay so it stays interesting. Getting new gear from dungeons and stuff was still rewarding because it was rare and looked cool.

You guys are dodging the main flaw of horizontal progression. That's incentive and reward. The point to getting stronger is so you can get better stuff and get even stronger. But horizontal progression gives you no reward. You play better, but what do you get in return? You get nothing, all you're doing is playing better for no reason. You get build variety, but what's the point to the build variety if there's no reward for going a particular build? Besides you can have build variety in a vertical progression game.

You are everything that is wrong with video games.

wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon
You build one of these fuckers. Legendary weapons are a pain in the ass to make, but unlike other tiers, you can change the stats and runes for free.

user. You log in so YOU can level up. You log in to master a system, to tune your reflexes and visual coordination, to learn better tactics, to be more efficient.

I can agree that some people just like to see number get bigger on screen, but come on, thats not a hard concept to understand.

Some people just want different kinds of challenges.

alternate ways of playing content at the same level.
like in FFXIV where you can have multiple classes on the same character and leveling up as a whitemage isn't necessarily for progressing your character through content, but for being able to do current content in a different way.

That too. I haven't played much of GW1. Almost done with EotN.

By not making gear 'better' in a vertical sense. You have gear with different situational uses. A chest piece with fire resist for when you're fighting a fire boss, and one with haste for when you need to cut shit down quickly. WoW has fucked your conception of what progression can be.

I know this is bait, but the sad thing is that the vast majority of people actually think this way at this point.

Threadly reminder Red Mages are chads.

You don't understand intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards

I guess making weapons and gear have different applications than "bigger number than the last set of big numbers," but then I guess you run into a hoarding and storage problem.

Dark Souls would be far better without the RPG investment mechanics.
Imagine if you could actually equip a new weapon you found and just bop some niggers with it without being super gimped.

I miss FFXI red mages because they represent to me a time in MMOs where classes could fill interesting niches and still contribute to parties in desireable ways. Before WotLK fucked us all into an utterly static trinity.

Also just fyi, that perfected rifle is a reskinned legendary. I don't like the gaudy look of the Predator but the Perfected Rifle looks like a .50 cal.

>Customizability is the cornerstone of RPGs and as long as your character is customizable there will need to be some kind of equipment or stat-based progression.

That's kind of the whole point of horizontal progression; you chase gear/skills that further augment your character, but all have equal value. You misconstrue what that means by assuming you don't get stronger this way. In fact, you do get stronger by increasing your utility and coverage without relying on a stat-stick to advance. The difference is that all forms of progression are considered equal and have far more longevity, not exactly being required to clear content, but greatly bolstering what you can and can't do.

Mega man games are a good example of horizontal progression. Your path to collect abilities is up to you, but ultimately they are meant to bolster your character and improve performence in specific situations. This is easily applied to the MMO genre where performence is heavily encouraged, but instead of generic stat increases, you focus more on mechanical and build augmentations.

I mean yeah you can build your character to be able to effectively equip everything when you pick it up and still easily beat the game because souls is way more about learning attack patterns than coherent builds.
But if you strip the rpg mechanics from the game you lose all the satisfaction from actually creating a build that you've optimized to do what you want.