But was he wrong?

>Joker forcibly changes how people act and think for his benefit
This is ok.
Maruki forcibly changes how people act and think to grant happiness to everyone with no gain for himself
This is somehow wrong.

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Only tangibly related but I never got why people thought the Phantom Thieves were in the wrong for what they were doing. If it was to the common masses, I'd understand, but they only really targeted people that would have done more harm than good if left unattended too.

It's a Japanese game, designed for Japanese market, to make Japanese otaku stop being basement dwellers and start contributing to their dying society because Japan's birth rates are near 0 and death rates are at an all time high.
That's the only reason and I'll even fucking /thread myself for it because it's an objective fact.
/thread

>Joker only does heists because his ass is on the line every time
>Ryuji only does heists until late game because he gets a thrill off it and loves the proxy fame
>Morgana only does heists to find the truth of himself hidden in momentos

All the other Phantom thieves just do it to follow joker or because they were personally wronged by someone Joker fixed before and think it should be done to other people they think are bad the same way the person that wronged them was "corrected."

Say what you will about the positive results of their brainwashing and forceful taking of bad peoples free wills, but the PT are almost exclusively acting in self interest.
Maruki just acted to the benefit of everyone.

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>Joker forcibly changes how people act and think for his benefit
>This is ok.

It's actually not OK. The PT realize their actions were just returning Shadows to the prison for everyone's souls. They realize at that point that the only way for society to truly change is to leave it up to adults and have them take responsibility. In the end the only truly good thing they did was killing Yaldabaoth a being who was intervening in everyone's cognition.

Don't sleep throouuuuugh dreeeaaams
thaaaaat can't come true
Noooo more tears
shall drop from your cheeks anymore
You wooon't need to striiiiiiive
fooooor greatness
Belieeeeve in me
that you don't need to suffer frooooom
Aaaaaanyyyyythiiiiiiing

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>Nyarly did nothing wrong
>Azzy did nothing wrong
What did Fatlus mean by this?

He was wrong but the game was so stupidly written it couldn't grasp how or why. To put it in as few words as possible, the world Takuto was trying to make only seemed better on the surface, and by the nature of his partiality in judgment would have led to far worse problems than our current Earth as it would become an unstable plane of torment as he constantly shifted who he was trying to help at any given moment, since his "help" tended to cause terrible problems for other people than its recipient, so he'd immediately need to help them afterwards and put his original target back into their state of suffering.

That's not how that works. He warped the humanity's collective consciousness (Mementos), he's not doing it manually.

Joker, just think. I could make SMTV come out on the Switch tomorrow. In fact, I can also assure you that you'll have plenty of free time to play it from beginning to end. You just need to let me undo all of the rape and murder and suffering on earth. That's all. One tiny request and you can have it all. What do you say? Do we have a deal?

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What a horrible post

ZA WARUDO!

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He wasn't wrong.
He was weak minded.

its bad because he was doing it on a large indiscriminate scale

This is the truth about the reason why atlus went for this narrative.

doesn't mean he was wrong though

HOLY DIVER

exactly what I thought

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Joker changes the way abusers think and act, often because of their criminal actions against others
Maruki is forcibly changing the world of innocent people who didn’t consent to it

They weren’t. The game presents it as morally ambiguous but never actually has the Phantom Thieves fuck up or be accountable for anything bad happening
It’s pretty toothless but feigning moral ambivalence

NOOOOOOOO THEY NEED TO GROW AS PEOPLE GO KAMOSHIDA NOWS YOUR CHANCE!

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>everyone with no gain for himself
Dude was pissed off and trying to make himself feel better for losing someone, so in a way he's just being petty and playing pretend

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A WORLD WITHOUT RAPE ISNT A WORLD WORTH LIVING IN

Well, I wouldn’t say he feels bad for losing someone but he has too much empathy to see people in pain. His goal is extremely selfish in that he wants to ease people’s pain so he doesn’t feel their pain as his own. He has no concern for how other people actually think or want to privately deal with their pain, only for how he feels seeing them.
Maruki’s entire world view and moral system is the avoidance of pain, that’s why he’s dressed like a sanitarium shrink

Atlus even went on record when people were comparing Shindo to Trump that the game's script was written in 2014 before the whole Trump thing and that the script was meant to Japanese sociopolitical situation of that era, so no it's not horrible at all, it's just facts.

the people who joker mind controlled through cognitive psience didn't consent to him changing them. How is it any different?

just like there is nuance in using it to stop abuser, is there not a place for it to be used on people like futaba and rumi who are so mentally broken they will kill themselves?

Like doing it on the entire world was wrong, but he wasn't wrong in trying to put that cognitive psicence to good use.

Maruki doesnt unrape shiho he just makes her forget it.

they fail to break the illusion and the world is under control of some false god, which has typically been a failstate for Persona

so probably things are okay for a while but Filet Mignon has lost which leaves the door open to Nyarly

What if someone’s biggest wish is, say, to cure cancer? Will Maruki make them develop a cure for cancer? How can he do that, if he doesn’t know how to make one?

Just like he makes Wakaba forget her death.

>Dude was pissed off and trying to make himself feel better for losing someone, so in a way he's just being petty and playing pretend
The story actually makes it clear that he's not doing it for himself, it's why he achieves self-actualization and unlocks Adam Kadmon, he genuinely, 100% believed he was doing it for the betterment of all and didn't take himself into account whatsoever.

He's wrong because he lost to the PT.
If he won, he would be right as he could back up his views through strength, which is how this franchise always does things.
t.abe

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That's not how it works, it's not a dream world, he literally changes reality. Game is very explicit about it, much like the dead people you see are genuinely alive again, they aren't some shadow construct zombies or fake visions, they are the genuine real deal.
The entire reason why people have a problem with the narrative is because the way Maruki is presented has little if any flaws whatsoever and everything he does is the genuine real deal.
Meanwhile Joker and his gang come in and say "MARUKI WORLD BAD", to which Maruki replies "Why?" and you get meme-tier NPC reaction of Joker and his gang going apeshit on him without any arguments.
It doesn't mean Maruki is in the right, only that the narrative and characters make literally 0 effort to explain/show why he might not be right.
Kind of like all the people on twitter screeching "ORANGE MAN BAD" but when you ask them "Why?" they have no reply and just attack you with ad-hominem calling you a sexist incel.
Likewise this doesn't mean Trump is or isn't right, only that the people in question are incapable of argumenting their stance, much like this game completely fails to argument its stance of "MARUKI WORLD BAD".

>the part of his method that's bad is wrong, but the part that's good is right, so he's defendable
That arguement doesn't have legs to stand on. The point that he was all-or-nothing is what explicitly makes him wrong. Yeah, if he was more nuanced about using his power, it would have been difficult to disagree with him, but he wasn't, which makes him wrong under any amount of scrutiny.

The cancer will just never form I assume.
Kind of like how the unrape happened for Shiho

i mean the same thing happened with the investigation team and adachi.
adachi says everyone would be happier as shadows where they dont have to hide their true natures and the team just calls him an incel.

Seeing as he warps reality, it could be as simple as sugar tablets now having power to stop uncontrollable growth and telomere deterioration.

>final boss is a kind-hearted adult who actually wants the best for the PTs
love it

To be fair, Joker's ass was only on the line because of non-PT related things the first time. After that, his ass was on the line only after they had meddled in their target's business.

In his world, cancer probably wouldn't even exist. Or else someone would figure out the cure.
It really was the perfect climax. I wonder how P6 will step it up.

I like how Azathoth is a reverse of Nyarlathotep in this game.
Nyarlathotep wants to amplify all of humanity's bad desires and warp reality to make them all come true, effectively bringing about the end of the world.
Azathoth wants to amplify all of humanity's positive desires and warp reality to make all of them come true, effectively bringing about the ideal world.

He only changes reality because Mementos is still bleeding into the real world post-Yaldabaoth fight. You could argue that a Mementos reality is or isn't the /real/ reality, but I'm not about to get into that. The arguement that the PT makes for Maruki's world being bad is that even though Maruki is coming from a place of goodness, the fact that he's ultimately deciding for everyone what their happiness is means that he's no better than Yaldabaoth in terms of control. They fight him because they realise that even though reality is harsh and unfair, bad things happen to good people, etc, people should be given the agency to deal with it as best they can. Taking that agency away would just turn people into puppets, same as Yaldabaoth.

Rule of Chaos, bitch. He lost the fight, he lost his rights

>You could argue that a Mementos reality is or isn't the /real/ reality
Persona 2 makes it explicitly clear that the world of collective consciousness is real, Persona 5 repeats it (it's not even called Metaverse in Japanese, just "The Other World"), so yes it's real.

>was he wrong?
>Unlocks ADAM KADMON the primordial man of divinity, embodiment of the sefirot, first realm of creation of god's eternal light
I get the feeling he shouldn't be wrong

Maruki was right. Freedomfags are too dumb to realize that their IRL dedication to freedom doesn't apply in-universe because Freedom is cool and all but it doesn't justify overwriting a move that will create a better world.

>. The game presents it as morally ambiguous
what ?
>first is an obvious tyrant who hurt, blackmail, threaten and abuse his students
>second one is an artist who stole a painting then imegiadly shown as batshit insane who literally "kild ur mom"
>the next one is a mafia boss who want to sell your kidneys
>the next one is rushed as hell with no dialogue, based on rich = evil
every antagonist is worse than a saturday cartoon villain, that's the worst part

If only they had the balls to make an antagonist like this for the main story.

It's just Mutts, they're all Chaosfags.
Atlus even said that Japanese players tend to lean towards Law or Neutral, while Western players are overwhelmingly leaning towards Chaos routes in their games.

Japan is overpopulated. Low birth rates aren't a bad thing. Old people need to die and stop fucking the economy.

RIDE THE TIGER
YOU CAN SEE HIS STRIPES BUT YOU KNOW HE'S CLEAN

>Japan is overpopulated.
wrong, it's just the tokyo area is overcrowded, everything else is empty as shit

The only real argument I can see against Maruki's world is it's clear that civil stagnation is inevitable. We see multiple cases of background NPCs basically giving up on whatever dreams or goals they have for something easier. A student giving up on studying and college for a job at her father's company, a volleyball player giving up his starter position so he can just cheer in the stands which is less effort.

They take the path of least suffering, but ultimately there's much less fulfillment as well. Pain sucks, but it can also be a big motivator to achieve greater things. But in Maruki's world, everyone takes the easy way out and so nobody achieves anything of value.

>grants your wish, you find a cure for cancer
>every cancer patient already got cured by him

I feel like I'm one of the few lawfags on Yas Forums. It's odd.

And of course neutral is most common, it's always the "proper" route.

literally just individualism vs collectivism

and just like always, the middle is the best