Left or right?

Left cause you can stay in one play style
but both are over hated

1's a broken pile of shit, so right by default.

based. but i will have to go with left. sa2 hasnt aged that great.

>No reused levels
They sure as hell reused the assets for levels though. SA2 feels even less varied despite there technically being no recycling of levels.

middle

>>no reused levels
Yeah but every level uses the same 3 sets of assets so they all look the same
>>no mandatory fishing minigames
Big's story is only like 20 minutes but ok you can have that one
>>no worthless overworld
I wouldn't call giving players a safe environment to learn and experiment with the controls worthless
>>don't have to charge up ring dashes
Yeah but in exchange it only works half the time because there's like 5 other actions mapped to the same button

2 plays worse than 1 in literally every way aside from not having to charge the lightdash. Sonic constantly feels like he's tripping over himself, the mechs move way too slow compared to Gamma, and making the Radar only detect one Emerald at a time is the most asinine design change I have ever seen in a video game.

Right but every song in the soundtrack has been replaced with this song from left
youtube.com/watch?v=koncwZixlsI

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Left. Maybe I'd say right if the mechs controlled like Gamma and the hunting stages had the SA1 radar and level sizes (on their own they're not bad but it's glaring compared to SA1).

Penis heroes

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They're both shit, but probably Adventure 1.

I've actually thought a lot about this, as a Sonic autist, and I actually happened to just replay both games last month. I, personally, will always have a slightly greater affection for SA1 because I played it for Dreamcast when it was brand new and it absolutely blew my mind, it was my first time seeing a game from the new generation of consoles, so it's impossible for me to truly put myself outside of my own experiences and try to look at SA1 100% "objectively".

I'm also just more inclined in general to cut SA1 more slack because it was their very first attempt at a 3D Sonic game, something which history has proven is no easy task, and you can SEE in the beta version of Windy Valley they were sort of trying to emulate the momentum based gameplay of the classics with the wide open level with lots of alternate routes and ramps and whatnot. But I guess ultimately they never got it working the way they wanted so the action stages in the final game are a bit more linear and reliant on scripted set-pieces and boostpads. My issue with SA2 was they really doubled down on this kind of design elements, one that would ultimately becoming harmful to the overall design philosophy behind 3D sonic games.

>so they all look the same
as opposed to SA1 where it actually is the same lol
>I wouldn't call giving players a safe environment to learn and experiment with the controls worthless
this game was made for children and its a two button game, dont kid yourself.. its just glorified hallways for cutscenes
>Yeah but in exchange it only works half the time because there's like 5 other actions mapped to the same button
How bad are you exactly? Lightdashes work just fine even with electric shields and bounce bracelet so long as you know how to actually play the game

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But, that said, SA2 is simply a tighter, more polished, more fun game to play. I like the hub worlds of SA1 but they are, objectively, filler content. SA2 has more meat on its bones. The Gamma stages in 1 are fun sure but they're so short, easy, and few that it's basically more like a tech demo than a truly realized "game mode". Yes he is faster and less "clunky" than the mechs in SA2, but because he's so fast and loose he doesn't really have the weight a giant robot should have. Say what you want about the mechs in SA2, but they FEEL like you're controlling a mech, they have a sense of weight and momentum to them, and with skilled gameplay you CAN keep that momentum up.

The emerald hunting stages in 2 are also superior with the obvious, glaring, notable exception of the gimped radar. Your mileage may vary on this but the positives of having larger, more vertical and interesting stages designed specifically for characters with these movesets outweighs the negatives of a busted radar, and if it bothers you THAT much you can always fix it on the PC version, the option is literally built into the SA2B mod loader. Sure there are a few shitty stages like Mad Space but most of them are good, some are even great like Pumpkin Hill and Meteor Herd.

Also while I personally adore the way you can experience six different perspectives in SA1, I just personally have always been interested in that kind of Rashomon style storytelling, SA1 doesn't really do anything that interesting with the concept, and it results in a lot of repeated cutscenes. The overall story in SA2 just flows better, has MUCH better sense of narrative and pacing, both within the actual story itself and the overall story of playing hero, dark, then final rather than six different characters which sort of kills any sense of flow the story had going into the Super Sonic campaign.

Both are bad.

Right. Nonsense or not, they tried harder with the plot.

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You won the thread

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Every level has a different aesthetic in SA1
SA2 has desert level, space level, and San Francisco level
The hub world has a bunch of slopes and shit to fuck around with and makes the world feel connected and real instead of a series of abstract platformer levels
>prompt for light speed dash clearly on screen
>press button
>don't get light speed dash
Ah yes it clearly works flawlessly, pressing a button is just too hard for me

>not enjoying both even if you like a certain one more than the other
sa2 is better as a whole, even with the dumb mech stages. I still love sa1 as well.

Right, easy.

God no. The music is based but everything else is totally medicore. SA2 and especially SA1 might be jank but at least the core gameplay being so fun makes up for it.

There's absolutely no sense of flow in Heros due to enemy healthbars and gated progression blockers and the basic phyysics not preserving momemtum.

>sa2 hasnt aged that great.
Sa2 has aged way better then SA1, though, the fuck are you talking about?

The speed stages are even better in 2 then one, and the mech and treasure stages, even if you think they are a tad worse, aren't THAT much worse; which is easily outweighed by no big/amy to deal with, the improved chao garden, etc.

2 has a mission select.

>there's like 5 other actions mapped to the same button

I swear to christ this and the radar thing are the most overblown complaints imaginable. Yes, ideally stuff wouild be mapped to different buttons, but it's easy as fuck to do a soumersault vs a ring dash vs a bounce with a few minutees of practice without messing it up.

>Sonic constantly feels like he's tripping over himself

What does this even mean? Anyways, I disagree, sonic's a bit tighter in SA2 and more importantly the bounce braclet and rail grinding exists.

>the mechs move way too slow compared to Gamma,
True, but not to a frustrating degree, and it makes sense given them being mechs. It blows my mind people shit on the mech stages for this then suck off SM64 for being GOAT when mario's move,ment is even clunkier's then the mechs

>muh radar
It's not a big deal: the treasure stagesd in SA1 were short as fuck, the radar nerf, while sort of silly, isn't that big a deal when the whole point of the stage is to take your time exploring and chilling out to the smooth rap and jazz.

I agree it'd be better to say, have it unerfed and have 5 shards per stage instead; but as is it's not a big deal either

I was gonna give you shit since your entire first post is basically giving SA2 slack for shit outside of the context of itself as a game (your nostalgia and "it was an early attempt) and giving SA2 shit for shit outside of itself (the trends it set), but your second post redeemed yourself.

>The hub world has a bunch of slopes and shit to fuck around with and makes the world feel connected and real instead of a series of abstract platformer levels

You say that but the levels in SA2 end up feeling more real anyways since they are actually more visually grounded and are less just floating platforms in a void-y like a lot of SA1's shit is with red mountain or windy valley or even emerald coast in a respect.

>Every level has a different aesthetic in SA1
Bro, you play through the same levels with characters over and over though, that's the point. There are only 11 stages. Meanwhile, if you really want to get pedantic about this, SA2 has these as far as "unique" environments go:
>City Escape
>Wild Canyon, Dry Lagoon
>Prison Lane, Iron Gate
>Metal Harbor, Weapons Bed
>Green Forest, White Jungle
>Pumpkin Hill, Sky Rail
>Mission Street, Radical Highway
>Aquatic Mine
>Hidden Base, Sand Ocean
>Death Chamber, Egg Quarters, Pyramid Cave
>Eternal Engine, Lost Colony, Crazy Gadget
>Meteor Herd, Mad Space
>Final Rush, Final Chase, Cosmic Wall
>Security Hall
Like yeah you can just say "desert level" and ignore how different levels inside and outside the pyramid are. To say they "look the same" is pretty stupid in my opinion. And some of these are pretty different, like Wild Canyon and Dry Lagoon feel really different they just share a few art assets, same with Meteor Herd and Mad Space, like yes they're both in space but take place on completely different planetoids.

>mario 64 controls worse than the SA2 mechs

what the fuck am I reading

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>It blows my mind people shit on the mech stages for this then suck off SM64 for being GOAT when mario's move,ment is even clunkier's then the mechs
it blows my mind how you're even capable of breathing

>when mario's move,ment is even clunkier's then the mechs
Christ. This is what being an Adventure-teen does to your brain.

I'm , just want to clarify that I don't think the SA1 versions are significantly better, and that I agree the SA2 level design feels more focused as a whole. Even so, I just think Gamma's controls will always be more enjoyable to play, and that while it's true that he's a giant mech (7'1" iirc, and weighs almost a ton), his design is lanky and I bet most people would be surprised when they see how tall and heavy Gamma actually is. Oh, and I don't like SM64 that much either, if it makes you feel better.

As for the hunt stages, personally I don't find the exploration that interesting after a while. To me, exploration in the classics works because it helps you progress through the game- if you collect enough rings you get an extra life, or in the case of Sonic 1 and 2, you get the chance to enter a special stage and either get extra continues (Sonic 1) or collect the chaos emeralds to unlock Super Sonic (Sonic 2). In Sonic 3 and K, lives don't matter as much because of the save system, so instead they just have the special stages be found through exploration rather than having enough rings, so there's still a motive in that one too. But in SA2, the only reason to explore is to finish the stage, and I just don't find gliding around the whole stage for a long time (maybe it's an exaggeration, but a lot of the levels are empty space between platforms) that interesting, since aside from the shards, the only reason you'll want to explore is to get rings for a better ranking, but it doesn't take too long to get a lot of rings and time is more important, anyway. I appreciate the SA1 levels more because they incorporate exploration while not having it go on long enough that it feels like a chore. I'm not saying Sonic levels in general have to be below a certain time, but if a lot of it is just in a sandbox that doesn't have difficult level design on its own, then I just don't find it interesting after a while.

WHEN I DON'T SHOW OFF DON'T CRITICIZE
I'M JUST LIVING BY MY OWN FEELINGS

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The Mech's accelerate and turn faster/more responsively then Mario does in 64, yes.

m8 it takes Mario like a full fucking second to go from a stop to full speed and attempting to make a 90 degree turn when Mario is running has it take fucking ages for him to shift directions with an insanely wide turn radius.

so did you just get a 0 on every single assignment and test in your physics class or something?

I don't think they handle physics much in special ed.

Why are people so quick to dismiss any criticism of Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time for "it was a hardware limitation" or how "you had to have played it when it first came out to get it", but turn around and say that Sonic Adventure sucked ass for reasons that were mostly results of the Dreamcast's weaker power or even the problems that came up from porting the games to gamecube? Do people not realize both games came out before the Gamecube was even out?

m8, litterally go look up gameplay footage of SM64 and the mechs in SA2: It OBJECTIVELY, factually takes Mario longer to move to full speed or to do wide turns when moving.

I've wondered this about the SA1 storytelling, it's hard to judge because I've known the story for so long so I barely even remember my first reaction. But I think it works with Gamma, at least, especially after playing Amy's story. Before you play his story, even if you played everyone else beforehand, you hardly know anything about him and wonder what exactly you'd even do as one of Eggman's badniks. From Sonic's story all you know is that he helped Amy for whatever reason, and even when you play Amy's, he only helps once he sees the bird, so it's not very clear why. And then there's Amy's ending of course, where the other two birds just come out of nowhere, and she never sees Gamma again, which you'd might expect from the other stories since she has the biggest connection to him. So you're given small glances into Gamma through each story, until you finally play his and everything is contextualised. He goes from a generic badnik that Sonic fights once to an interesting and tragic perspective on the whole "roboticized animals" aspect from the classics. But other than Gamma, you're right that it doesn't really add much.

I agree, but Sonic is seen as an acceptable target so it gets shit for things Mario and such gets passes on.

Mario 64 a OOT weren't near as broken as Adventure 1

Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time have flaws, technical and otherwise, but their design is rock-solid and pretty evergreen. The very foundation of the Adventure games' design in contrast is held together with glue and duct tape.

Adventure 1 is a janky mess but somehow it all kinda works in spite of itself
Adventure 2 is still a janky mess but with a lot of polish to make it much less obvious on the surface, but with more damning underlying problems than 1 due to basic changes to the gameplay styles or even the way it handles level to level progression (switching from the three playstyles instead of having them as individual stories, I mean.)

yes user it's called momentum, something sa doesn't really have, try to make a 90 degree turn while you're running and see how much time it takes you
i like sa, but pretending it's anywhere near the level of polish as sm64 of oot is just being disingenuous

left. sonic adventure 2 was a downgrade in every way and only gamecube kiddies will disagree.

I agree that Mario 64 is the more polished game overall, and won't deny that in a regular playthrough, you'll encounter less glitches in Mario 64 than in Sonic Adventure (though when it comes to exploits Mario 64 has a shitload, but these are exploits so it's not that relevant), but people really exaggerate how "broken" Sonic Adventure is. The scripted events in Emerald Coast are the biggest ones, and once you figure out why these break (not holding forward), you can consistently and easily avoid these bugs. It's not justifying their existence, but it's not bad enough that it's held together with glue and duct tape. Sonic 06 is a much better example of the broken mess people think Sonic Adventure is.

When did I say Sonic Adventure was broken? I criticized the design. The game is poorly designed. The technical bugs and oddities are the least of the game's problems. It's a slapdash piece of spectacle with the rare bit of good level design. It's fucking boring to play once the novelty wears off. To put it another way, the biggest problem isn't that scripts break when you stop holding forward. The problem is that so much of the game revolves around basic scripts and holding forward to begin with.

I agree for the most part, and I don't dislike Adventure 1, it's a messy game game full of experiments, and I can respect that
but comparing it to Mario 64, and especially OOT, is silly

As far as Sonic (and by extension Shadow) gameplay goes, 1 has a lot of good ideas in terms of level design but fails to pull it together in a way that particularly entertains me. Also the light dash being instant in 2 is an objective improvement in terms of pacing.
Couldn't give less of a shit about the rest of the gameplay styles but I'd say they're much more tolerable in 2, with the exception of the emerald radar being nerfed. I still prefer the emerald stages in 2 because of level design.

I'd kill for another game like this but without emerald hunting, shooting, etc. Just the core gameplay. And the ability to play as someone other than Sonic and Shadow in that type of gameplay. Is Mania the only time in the past decade that I've been able to do this as Knuckles and Tails?

Probably because SA released two years and a half after SM64. You can only be so forgiving.

Given the fast paced nature of Sonic, I can understand why they wouldn't give you full control of the camera like SM64 did. But what I don't understand is the reasoning behind all the narrow tunnels and bridges and shit they're sending you down. Most of my memories of playing SADX involve me hitting a boost pad and barrelling down a tight corridor, and either slamming into the walls and coming to a halt or jolting onto a scripted sequence (which may or may not end with sonic derailing and falling into the void).

What Sonic Adventure needed was stages with more space, like the beta Windy Valley.

>comparing the Sonic Adventure titles to SM64 and OoT

Adventure games can't even compare to the Crash and Spyro titles.

SA1 definitely has momentum, turn on the game right now and run around the hubworld, the change in speed when you go up and down slopes is noticeable (except for the stairs up to Tails' workshop, which arguable make sense). The level design doesn't really take advantage of this in the same way the classics do though, and I can see why you might say the game doesn't have momentum with how they relied a lot on scripted events.

I was referring to two posts at once. In fact, I never said that the level design is great either, just that it's not really that broken (maybe it is in the endless ports, wouldn't surprise me).

People usually make the comparison not to say they're similar, but that criticizing Sonic Adventure just for being buggy or having aged poorly (which is usually exaggerated too) isn't that valid when SM64 has its fair share of bugs and is enjoyed still (I don't know why OoT was brought up though, I guess because of how quickly it can be speedrunned now). Sonic Adventure's level design hurts it more than its technical bugs.

lmao what the fuck are you talking about? theres maybe 10 "spectacle pieces" in the entirety of sa1 and half of them are in emerald coast.

The entire game is loaded with them. Have you played the game recently? Or is your threshold for meaningful level design much looser than mine is? It's not as bad as Sonic Adventure 2 in this respect, but the more involving bits like some of Red Mountain are few and far between.

2 has Chao garden which single handedly saved the game.

Garbage game that encapsulates every issue 3D Sonic ever had.
AMA
Right

If you played SADX first that's on you, its controls, scripting and physics are completely broken due to the nature of the rush-job port. Dreamcast still has the design problems but it doesn't throw you into a void at least.

Yeah so uhhh how did you become so based?

Right

Rank the teams from best to worst

The Left.

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In terms of playing, Sonic because it's the most balanced/pure way.
Team Rose is for pussies, but good for farming the emeralds, team dark is neat but the stages are too fucking long, not even hard, long/tedious/take too much time and aren't fun
And Chaotix are neat but those different styles of gameplay deserve their own stages crafted around it.
Based on music these though, Dark = Chaotix > What I'm Made Of > Sonic > Rose
Just wait till you hear my 2D Sonic opinions

>he doesn't like Duke the Cat fishing