It's impossible for a game to be so hard that it isn't fun, but it can definitely be so easy that it isn't fun

Fan games or fan levels. Kaizu shit

It depends on how fair the game is, every game should have unlimited continues and fair enemy placement. It becomes unfun when you can die like 2 times and have to restart from stage 1

it could be explained to you a million different ways, but you clearly have a huge chip on your shoulder so all you can comprehend is proving yourself even though no one cares and no one is watching you

Silver Surfer for the NES.

Those aren't real games, so I don't count them. You can tell the difference between a hard game with professional level design and some amateur meme shit.
That game's great though.
Nobody said anything about proving yourself or people watching you though, that's your projection. Why do people play video games? For a challenge. There's no point to a game that isn't challenging. If you want a relaxing experience watch a movie or something, and while you're at it I suggest you look up the definition of the word "game."

no, because a game that is cheap with it's difficulty can not fun

>Those aren't real games, so I don't count them. You can tell the difference between a hard game with professional level design and some amateur meme shit.

Then I mostly agree, but your question is hypothetical. So yeah it's entirely possible that a real studio would make a bad game by trying to make it hard.

no
for example, Wizardry 4 isn't fun
but I agree that games like Kirby and Dishonored become nothing more than spectacle because they are so easy, and that's not what I play video games for.

>why do you play video games?
well there's-
>for the challenge
why did you make this thread in the first place if you just want to talk to yourself. don't you have a mirror in you're bathroom?

No because there are different people with different tastes. Some do like extremely hardcore unfairly hard and others like just a breeze power fantasies.

Extremely hard and extremely casual games can both be engaging, but most likely for different audiences.

Of course, in some cases game is so easy that you could argue it is not actually a game.

>can not fun
is not fun*

If you don't appreciate a good challenge, you're not the target audience for video games. Things like visual novels, simulation games and JRPGs should be considered a totally separate medium, because they're almost unrecognizable to the rest of it.
I suppose so, but it's never happened to my knowledge.
Theoretically speaking, you can play video games for whatever reason you want, but that doesn't mean the designer is obligated to pander to you. People keep their televisions on for background noise, but that doesn't mean filmmakers should start making radio plays.

I beat Ninja Gaiden recently and the game is very reasonable outside the final boss sending you back to the start of Act 6.

like I said being cheap is not the same as being difficult, frustration should not be associated with fun, Ninja Gaiden is fun because it's not cheap, silver surfer is not fun because it is

No, there are plenty of overly hard games that are not fun. Most older NES games would be way more fun if they had proper permanent checkpoints. The reason gamea like megaman made you go back all the way to the start every time you lost was because otherwise people would complain that the game is too short.

I dunno man, the Sims doesn't have any challenge and is pretty popular. Same with creative Minecraft. As other anons have said, you have an opinion and you seem to think it applies to everyone else and can't understand that different people like different things for different reasons.

Videogames were made for children, not autistic 20 year olds who spend their life time grinding though NES games, that's why games which are easy or games which are literally made for toddlers are acceptable as easy. Why you seem to lack this mental capacity is beyond me

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The story, atmosphere, art, movement, music. You are a pleb.

Ninja Gaiden 1 definitely straddles the line with its bullshit like flying enemies that don't spawn until after you make a pixel perfect jump and kill you instantly or bosses resetting your lives to 0 on a single death and sending you to the START OF THE FUCKING LEVEL

>Theoretically speaking, you can play video games for whatever reason you want, but that doesn't mean the designer is obligated to pander to you. People keep their televisions on for background noise, but that doesn't mean filmmakers should start making radio plays
cool. that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying though.
but then again you are just talking to yourself at this point
Postal 2 isn't hard, but there is no better game to decompress with because of the sheer amount of stupid shit you can do in that game, and after progressing in something grueling like Rain World, it's nice to play something brainless like Rayman Origins.
basicly, you are myopic

Nobody actually believes this, but they pretend to and when they find a game that is too hard for them to have fun, they make excuses and call it 'artificial difficulty'

It doesn't matter if you arent the target audience, shit design is shit design.

Silver Surfer is fine. If it's too hard for you, that's not a failure of the game design, that's just you lacking the necessary skill to complete the game.
Checkpoints are hand holding garbage, NES games were designed so you could complete a level in one go if you had the skill.
That's fine, but they shouldn't be considered video games. By definition, a game is a challenge meant to be completed. There's no gameplay if you are just clicking through text boxes.
The children of yesteryear never complained about 8 bit and 16 bit games being difficult, and yet the "adults" of the modern gaming climate do.
Those things can supplement a game, but on their own they don't make a good game.
Ah, fair point. I suppose there is merit in games as a form of stress relief, such as Postal 2 as you mentioned, or a fighting game. But I don't really consider those to be "games" in a traditional sense, more like simulations. If you consider those to be games, then you must also consider college exams to be a game as well.

Games like Ninja Gaiden would be way more enjoyable with permanent checkpoints. This goes for a lot of older games, i remember Donkey Kong sometimes having ares with like 4 stages between proper permanent save spots.

>mass reply
and it's bait

the ability to experiment. the hitman games aren't that hard after the first two, for example, but you can do tons of stupid shit because of gameplay depth and there's a simple joy of just hiding in plain sight.

>I don't consider them to be "games"
save it for your blog

>if you don't appreacite a good challenge you are not the target audience for videogames
This has to be one of the most ignorant and retarded statements made in this board. Not every game is a try hard you stupid retard.

No.

That's what I believe. In truth, there's n osuch thing as "artificial difficulty." If you're bad at a game, just admit you are bad at it. Video games are not a sport nor are they a career, so there's no loss in just not getting it.
Like I said, it's not a failure of the game designer if you can't handle the difficulty. Not every hobby is meant for everyone.

>That's fine, but they shouldn't be considered video games. By definition, a game is a challenge meant to be completed. There's no gameplay if you are just clicking through text boxes.
By YOUR definition. Also neither of those games are clicking through textboxes. The fuck are you talking about? You're delusional and possibly autistic so I'm out.

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>The children of yesteryear never complained about 8 bit and 16 bit games being difficult, and yet the "adults" of the modern gaming climate do.
Because they had no platform to and because NES games are artificially difficult because of the days of Arcade ports and video game rentals to extend the game. Games back then were notoriously short, that's why they were made harder for the home market. This is even shown in localised releases like CV 3

It is a fact that games like Megaman in the NES era were designed with lack of proper checkpoints because they didn't want parents complaining that the game they bought for their kid and finished it in 2 hours.

And there it is. You are projecting your own bitterness and lack of skill at retro games because you have no argument of your own. It's fine if you don't enjoy it, but it's clear that you have emotional stake in this argument.
You could still finish them in 2 hours though, provided you had the skill.
Riddle me this, what is your endgame when playing something like the Sims? You are mindlessly doing repetitive tasks with no engagement, you might as well just be doing work, but you're not being financially compensated so there's no point.

Story/atmosphere alone can make a game good. Games like Silent Hill on a pure gameplay basis are all fetch quests with weird combat, yet it's one the best games ever made because of it's atmosphere and music. If you need try hard difficulty to any game at all then you are a mouth breathing with shit taste.

>You are projecting your own bitterness
You are projecting your own ego and insecurity about retarded NES games which were made for rental markets as if you had an argument to begin with.

ninja gaiden only takes rote memorization to beat
it's closer to reciting lines of a play offbook than actually playing a video game.
real games are things that take advantage of the medium. things that can be completed in more than one way.
with that in mind, Kirby, because of the multiple powers and movesets you can use, is more of a video game than Ninja Gaiden.

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You could finish it in two hours after weeks of playing it, no regular customer was gonna finish it in two hours after opening the box.

I won't deny that there is a certain appeal to games that offer mindless button bashing catharsis, like shooters and fighters, but if a game's only selling point is its story and atmosphere, it might as well just be a movie. If I can watch a video on the internet to get the optimal experience from a game, it's not a game.
Ah, but only one of us appears to be upset by this exchange, and it's not me. I'm satisfied with my abilities, you don't seem to feel the same about yours.

Incorrect. You don't need to memorize anything to beat Ninja Gaiden, you can clear the game just fine if your reactions don't mirror that of a 90 year old Alzheimers patient.

Meant for

>You are mindlessly doing repetitive tasks with no engagement, you might as well just be doing work, but you're not being financially compensated so there's no point.
Millions of people think otherwise retard.

It's definitely not impossible for a game to be so hard you don't have fun, especially when it's unintended. For example, Pandora's Tower for the Wii has a game-breaking crash associated with one of the game's last levels. This crash while avoidable due to a community work around, the bug itself is incredibly easy to proc and fuck you over out of progress.

>GAME HARD = GAME GOOD
>GAME EASY = GAME BAD

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>Ah, but only one of us appears to be upset by this exchange, and it's not me.
It's clearly you since your argument devolved into ad hominem, nice bait though

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Checkmate, you lose.
See, that example is different. When things are clearly glitched or not functioning as they should, that's not deliberate design.

If movies were just about the story then they might as well be a book, and if books were just about the story then no book would need to more than just a couple of pages long or have any prose.

What is happening here is that you have a wrong idea of what both the medium of movies and games are. Not evert game was am NES plataformer even in the NES era. You are very ignorant of the history of games.

There is no way in hell anyone is beating the 2nd part of the final boss on the first try, you have to memorize his patterns or you will get fucked and getting fucked leads to the worse punishment in the entire game since you have to go all the way back to 6-1

even the cliche ubisoft open world garbage with it's towers and lacking content still have more to offer, as video games, than two hour long nes rental-baits that play like easier rhythm games
there are hard video games that actually take advantage of the medium, though, such as umihara kawase and umihara kawase shun, games that, unlike ninja gaiden, can't be beaten just through vapid memorization. the first two 3d ninja gaidens also require real skill, as opposed to their 2d predecessors.

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silver surfer are is a real game. just because you were not around...

The earliest films had no dialogue or sound design whatsoever, so you're wrong. The concept of film is visual, the concept of literature is written, and the concept of a game is to play it. Please don't use words for which you misunderstand the definition.
That sounds like a "you" problem, not a fault of the game.
Name one objective flaw with Silver Surfer. True, it's not the most forgiving game in its genre, but its challenge is completely fair.

I'm convinced this nigga is either a master troll or an actual autist. Can we call him ChallengeFag?

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agreed, jaquiao needs more than one go to beat

God this is sad, autism like this deserves its own containment

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user you can like hard games, you can think they are the best. But you can't say every game should be about being hard, that's ridiculous. That's like saying every movie should be a drama or every movie should be action.

the fact of the matter is, predictability is the enemy of gameplay. can one argue that a piece of electronic media that does the same things the same way every time is truly a video game? does that not describe movies? even if it's interactive, DVD menus were too, and they offered more options than something like Ninja Gaiden.
rote memorization is something only people who are bad at video games would be proud about, because no real game can be beaten by it. I would like to see OP try something like Rain World, where his crutch of trial and error will not save him.

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