What makes a challenge in a game feel cheap or unfair?

What makes a challenge in a game feel cheap or unfair?

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If you're constantly fighting the camera or controls.

It's deliberately designed to be challenging rather than the challenge being the side effect of its complexity. Anybody who actively sets out to make something "hard" is a terrible designer, just like any writer who sets out to make something that's hard to read is a bad writer.

oh shut the fuck up retard.

Dungeon Meshi is a great and charming manga and I love it.

>Enemy moves way faster than you out of the sudden
>Big ass enemy moves way more faster than you and considering the weight for its size

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Not an argument.

Failure through no fault of your own. RNG, lack of indications for danger and no chance to react (mimic just looks like any other chest and kills you instantly, etc), misleading animations and hitboxes, the sort.

Enemy OHKOs you for not using the one skill it's weak to but the game never tells you what it's weak to. You have to learn it by trial and error.

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No warning

These are the correct answers.

>tfw that big snake in the neopets ps2 game kept killing me because I didn't know how to block
>literally spent 3 hours sitting there dying over and over until I learned the block button

10 year old me was kinda dumb

>have to walk on cliff edge
>enemy drops down to attack you from behind
>you to fall to your death from the knock back
basically any bullshit move designed to only be avoided after you've been killed by it once

Nice pic

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metal gear rising is an amazing game, but they should have done a better job of explaining parrys.

same with god hand and the moves that are always on.

i think games should only challenge the player on criteria that has been clearly laid out beforehand.

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Big things only look like they move slow.

RNG
there should always be a fool-proof way to beat a challenge

Source?

Yeah I'm with you, it's one of my favorite games ever but parries literally aren't used until FREE WILL IS A MYTH because they never teach it to you unless you go out of your way to do the training mission.

Also the zendetsu cutting mode thing, I never used it and had a hard time agoains Sundownder and didn't learn it until Armstrong where you absolutely need it.

I'm amazed I got through the game not using two very important mechanics

>metal gear rising is an amazing game, but they should have done a better job of explaining parrys.
They didn't really explained, but they didn't need to explain further. 10 minutes in you're parrying shit like a madman.

Retarded post. Complexity != Challenging, which defeats the whole point. There are many simple games that are incredibly simple but quite hard to play, and then there are many indepth and complicated games that are too easy to the point of being unplayable.

Any challenge that requires either clairvoyance or dumb luck to overcome in one try, assuming perfect play.

they explained it but really poorly. doktor should just fucking come out and say attack when attacked, or reference the red eye flash.

The From Software "flailing then slow down then flail some more"

>they explained it but really poorly.
True, but the people who went to MGR wasn't stranger to action games so they know how parry in those games works.

>Played almost the entirety of MGR:R without knowing parry was even a thing, up until the first Armstrong fight

I felt like a turbo retard

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I can't think of a single action game with a parry system like MGRs.

I thought it was a gag of the week DnD parody at first glance, but it's probably tied with Berserk for my favorite manga now.

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The game's popularity. If it's a hard game that's unpopular, it's cheap. But if it's Dark Souls it's tough but fair.

A bossfight like pic related. Just fight against him in the original version and you know what a bad bossfight design is

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Obvious answer, but something that you'd have no means of dodging or dealing with if you didn't already know that it's there.

A trap should be something that you can feasibly dodge if you're perceptive or have good reaction time, not a health-toll booth for people going in blind.

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/thread
way too many games coming out that only define their value through sheer difficulty and tedium. Games tailor-made for blowhards. But to actually answer the question, INSANE TRACKING ON POWER MOVES

If an enemy's tracking is more than 30 degrees, it's retarded and gay and artificially difficult. If a game offers tons of different builds but only one or two are clearly superior to others, then it's fucking shit. Looking at you Nioh 2

it's fucking elegant, though. tying something defensive into your light attack button is an amazing idea and it makes your playstyle a lot more fluid and aggressive. i wish more games did that.

FFXII

Removing agency from the player. Getting killed in 1 hit is less frustrating than getting hit once, then getting locked into an animation or combo that you can't do anything to stop until you're dead.

If you've no way to get any information about it whatsoever before it bends you over. Like a black trap in front of a black background in Limbo. The busted wall and the groove in the staircase right when you start Dark Souls makes the boulder fair. Something where you have no chance to observe something coming at you is unfair.

I found it absolutely hilarious that laius is now the bad guy heading towards absolute destruction.

Dragons dogma's had maneaters that hid in chests would keep you until you died and the only way of telling which chest would be a maneater chest is from experience.

DMC3; THE only action game that matters.

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When hitboxes don't work, or basic mechanics aren't relevant. Souls for garbage hitboxes, and Final Fantasy for worthless mechanics.

I wouldn't say that he's a bad guy. Just an inadvertent threat to everything and everyone because he's super trusting and may or may not make a Fausttian contract as a result.

that sounds like good game design, but a bad trap.

take it to fucking
Bad enough half of the threads on Yas Forums are off topic, we don't need you two autists derailing on topic ones

I love Sekiro and have gotten to the point where I can beat majority of the bosses without taking damage but fuck me the camera is awful and every time I bring it up some soulsfag tells me it's part of the design or you shouldn't be in a compromising spot to begin with.
Sometimes the camera literally detargets when it's behind a wall because it thinks you're not in its line of sight.

>Complexity != Challenging, which defeats the whole point.
No it doesn't. Nowhere in that post did it say that complexity necessarily adds to the challenge, only that challenge should only come from more complexity, and not things like inflated numbers.

Brugoid.
Ninja gaiden, sekiro, DMCV, Furi and probably thousands more.
MGR combat is basic at best.

Pretty gay user.

If the game isn't challenging, it isn't fun. If you add meaningless complexity in a shallow attempt to add challenge as a "side-effect" rather than the main course, you've failed as a game designer.

I never understood why people shit on the camera in sekiro.
Then i saw that the boss rush mod got an update that lets me fight minibosses and fought the long shadow swordsman again.

Sorry user, i wont do it again.

Relax, guy.

i've not played ninja gaiden yet and both furi and sekiro came out after mgr. DMC's parry system isn't quite the same as MGRs though.
>DMC: attack at the same time as certain enemies or use royalguard
>MGR: press the attack button and move towards an enemy whenever a red shine emanates from them to do a parry, which open up enemies for extra damage if timed correctly
Not saying that one's done better than the other, just that I can't think of any games that had a parry mechanic that worked the same way as the one in MGR before its release.

The jousting daily game from that Trial of the Crusader patch in Wrath of the Lich King. You were given a set of rules on like your speed or turning rate or cooldowns or some shit I don't remember but the NPC opponents didn't have to play by those rules. It wasn't impossible or even that hard but it was fucking cheap and annoying.

>DMC's parry system isn't quite the same as MGRs though.
In DMC dodge works the same than parry, also can be done with attacks for those sweet style points on your style meter.

You're just the proving the people complaining about MGR parry is just people who doesn't play action games or doesn't pay attention at all. Also, for those people the game has a dodge which was too good for its own sake.

The designer still has to manually set how much damage the enemies deal, how much health they have, how aggressive their AI is, etc. No amount of “complexity” will make a game difficult when the enemies only deal completely negligible amounts of damage, and a certain degree of difficulty is necessary to facilitate gameplay depth

Dude, its literally blocking, there isnt much to it.
You could say legend of fucking zelda had similar parry mechanics.
>timing blocks gives an opening
Whoag i cant believe dragons dogma is literally metal geegwhoe.

No matter what people say, the challenge of sekiro is mainly supplied by raw stats.
Old man isshin is a more unique fight than sword saint, but the challenge from sword saint comes mainly from his stats.
Sekiro is still fucking great.

Cute meshis.

Adorable meshis deserve a happy ending.

>In DMC dodge works the same than parry
Even if that were true, a dodge and a parry are both different things. Having played through all of the DMC games and MGR multiple times, I can say that the input and effect of the dodge and parry in their respective games is different, a better example would be royal guard, especially in 5.
Yeah, blocking or parrying attacks isn't something that MGR invented nor am I trying to claim that it did. The input for parrying and there being a different effect for timing the parry perfectly is something that was seen first in MGR, to my knowledge at least.

>Whoag i cant believe dragons dogma is literally metal geegwhoe.
Well. it's obvious it was made by DMC devs

>"Skeletons, master!"
>Fighter + holy/fire buff
>Draw their attention
>Block
>Stinger
>Block
>Stinger
>Block
>Stinger
Really enjoying that crap.

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Eh, I feel like the boulder trap in DaS's tutorial area was meant to be a newby trap and that they expected players to get hit by on their first playthrough. I find it forgivable though because it does serve a couple of purposes.
A. It serves as an introduction to the estus flask since you get it right after getting hit by the boulder so it serves as a good way to introduce the player to the healing mechanics without relying on a pop up message or tutorial.
B. It serves as an introduction to traps which become a fairly common thing in the game. It serves as a good way to say "hey, this game is littered with traps so take it slow and watch your step", again without relying on pop up tutorials or something like that and it hurts enough that it comes off as a stern warning and not an outright "haha fuck you"
I'd say most of the bullshit in DaS comes from struggling with the camera in some areas or a few areas where there's a lot of useless detail crap that the can get the player or the camera can get caught in.