Why is Ultimate so unfun? From a gameplay perspective why is everyone so cancerous to play against?

That's pretty much what I meant

Oh yes, the hyperbole, nice job, retard.

This but unironically

>Post hyperbole
>Get hyperbolic response
>Act surprised
based

What's "hyperbolic" about it? A game not being "competitive" doesn't mean it is shallow, everything needs to be esports nowadays and it's retarded.

Because it's not a strictly casual game, it's meant to appeal to both audiences and was always marketed as such. Smash was fucking designed as a response to KoF being so unapproachable for new players so to call it a strictly non-competitive party game is wrong.

>was always marketed at such
Sakurai himself stated Smash is not even a fighting game, one thing is being competitive and other thing is being a compfag being obsessed with tourney faggotry, all these retards are the latter, they can't possibly understand how could anyone defeat them and bitch about it nonstop. Play something else, you'll never get what you want out of a mascot party game.

>Sakurai himself stated Smash is not even a fighting game
You're using hyperbole yourself again. Can you please cite where he ever said this? He calls it a fighting game in dozens of interviews and the strongest argument you probably have to support otherwise is he compared it to traditional fighting games in the Byleth trailer and ended with a "who knows" if it's a "real" fighting game? Also if Nintendo doesn't care about the competitive players why is there a ranking system, invitational tournaments, and tweets directly from Sakurai congratulating top competitors winners/runner ups at major tournaments? Why do you feel the need to go online and lie?

Keep bitching then, see where it takes you.

You don't have to even be a compfag to play a typical match online of Smash and see how obnoxious it is to play against a Ness or a Simon who just sits under platforms and camps the whole time you know. K. Rool is shit but casuals still complained enough about him to get him nerfed.

>playing smash online
lol

Yes.

Boring combos that can't be changed or else characters get to escape immediately because you tried to be different
Recovery is basically guaranteed for more than half the cast
Counters can kill
There's literally over 80 characters so knowing all the matchups is a huge timesink or impossible if there are very few people playing certain characters
Few moves are punishable on shield/whiff
Dogshit online makes people even angrier about cheesey/dumb shit that wouldn't work in real life

>locus
Literally who? What type of mammal would name themself toilet?

Seriously its all cancer even against shit tier character like Robin and Little mac.

>Boring combos that can't be changed or else characters get to escape immediately because you tried to be different
That's dishonest because there are plenty of characters with literal grocery lists of combos. Young Link this patch is pretty absurd since now he has even more combo starters with his zair.

>Recovery is guaranteed
Recovery is stronger than Melee but hardly guaranteed unless you're like, Pikachu or something.

>Counters can kill
It's really easy to beat players who just preemptively counter all the time. I have taken stocks off of braindead swordfags by just charging forward smashes and watching them walk up to me and counter like I'm not anticipating it.

>More matchups is bad
That's not a bad thing though. Why would anyone be upset about character diversity or most characters functioning as a counterpick at the bare minimum if they can't be solo mained? Sounds to me like you're mad it takes effort and practice to be good at things.

>Dogshit online
Yeah that is actually a fair point. I still prefer to play Melee online because of that.

I guess you just play the game and don't watch tournaments at all, probably a good thing. So often do I see players just let people grab ledge because going out to challenge them works very little. MKleo does it at least, but that's cause Joker can get away with it.
Counters shouldn't kill, period. Literally getting killed in the middle of comboing someone because it was just a couple of frames off being true is the dumbest mechanic I've seen.
When your matchup list can't even be consistently practiced because it's so huge and some characters just don't get played, how can the player "get good" at that? If you only get to play them once every 50 online matches, they beat you once and then leave, and you have no one locally that plays it, you can't truly learn that matchup.

Even Super Mario Party has tierlists

>Somebody gets good with a character that's not top 3

>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN

Melee fag cancer is seeping into Ultimate

Literally only people hate jigglypuff and only retarded fox mains hate marth (zain)

Because the rest of the roster is shit and any time a character has some mechanic that people don't like it ends up being banend or sanctioned like wobbling. If Melee was actually a balanced game I'm sure you'd be seething about Mewtwo or Luigi or something like that.

Where's the little mac mains to rise up

Only a few characters. Gotta admit I get pretty fucking tilted when a Cloud limit break Cross Slashes me into the blast zone when I'm behind him.

>incineroar
bullshit side B kills at 90%, revenge is also bullshit if he gets it
>jiggly
rest kills at 50%, campy playstyle
>kirby
impossible to hit. safe on shield tilts, if he camps its even more annoying
>Ness
PK Fire, gross disjointed aerials. back throw
>DK
ding dong, gibs with backthrow aiming to edge, back air spam
>joker
arsene. Campy playstyle
>Samus
zoner faggotry, never approaches, if you jump you get faired, if you are above Screw attack
>Mii gunner
weaker samus, same faggotry
>mii SF
braindead zoner, same faggotry, even more spam, now with disjoints
>ryu/ken
kills at 60%. jab into kill. dtilt into kill. spammy dtilt safe on shield. just a disgusting character in general
>Luigi
gimmick character that will either never approach if he has the luxury or go for grabs for gimmick combos.
>Zelda
OOS Bair punish kills at 60. Farores wind kills at 60. janky easy kill power

>Megaman
>pac-man

could go on, all the low tiers, mid tiers and zoners are either gimmicky or boring to fight against

Online sucks. That's the vast majority of the problem. When I started playing offline the game felt fast as fuck and I have a lot of fun. Problem with online is the additional couple frames of constant lag make punishing brain dead shit harder or impossible, so people do brain dead shit as much as possible because they want to cheese rather than play the game. You have to put in double or triple the effort to beat players that are actually worse than you. It's why online Ganon is so popular, but offline he's a joke. And not to mention. Stage variety leads to cheese and drawn out games as well on Battlefield. You just know someone isn't trying to win legit if they pick Bowser on that stage, or decides to camp under platform with Link.

The reason the other characters don't get played is because they get shat on by competent players of the high tier characters, not because people go "OMG I DIED TO LUIGI MISFIRE, FUCKING BAN IT" you fucking bozo
And wobbling is getting banned because it's a low skill tech that ends with a guaranteed kill that only causes campy gameplay from both players which viewers and players of the game do not see as the spirit of melee at all.
Also you switched your argument from "'REEE BAN THIS' retards existing" to "if the game was balanced, we would see other characters", like no shit sherlock, but that's not the game we have and it can't be changed or else Nintendo gets fucking angry

Retarded hitboxes, no end lag on anything, insane input lag and annoying buffer system. Ultimate is still best played as a party game

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K Rool thrives in the laggy online environments, and the game is balanced around online.

See them buffing ZSS.

>The reason the other characters don't get played is because they get shat on by competent players of the high tier characters,
Yes that's literally what I said. Melee's balance is shit so you never have to see low tiers or characters with weird gimmicks because they can't compete beyond locals. If Luigi were better you fags would be crying about him just the same since he revolves around gimmickshit like ICs.

>combos that can't be changed or else characters get to escape immediately because you tried to be different
Aka the majority of side scroller fighting games

No, you're projecting how people feel about jigglypuff and wobbling to all the low tiers and that if more characters were better, people would only complain. The onslaught of people complaining about things is a product of zoomers whining for what they want and modern game patch culture.

No jump momentum means the game will always feel awkward to play.

Yeah and this is about smash, the free form combo fighting game, or at least was supposed to be after 64 and Melee did it right

How am I "projecting"? Meleefags have proven time and time again that if anything disrupts the harmony of Fox vs. Marth they don't like it. It is fact that if Melee had better balance and more "dishonest" characters could compete in the upper echelons of play there'd be even more whining.

People who complain about things will never get better. It's why leo is the best player in the world.

Because you don’t know what you’re doing. That’s it.

It's missing that high level mechanic like wavedashing or perfect pivots to add a few options, and recovery is still too safe.

If the game had decent netcode and some more features (boss fights, break the targets) it would be a fine compromise, though.

>K Rool is shit
Not online, all heavies and projectile users are far better online, K Rool is both.

I would bin all of you shitters so hard. With low tiers even.

Okay so you don't know what you're talking about, thanks
Pikachu (Axe) and Yoshi(aMSa) being in top 8s consistently is proof enough that people don't complain about characters that aren't Fox or Marth. Hell, Marth has only started reappearing normally again because Zain got good after M2K stopped competing. Are you really just here to shitpost using 5 year old info?

>connects to someone 800 miles away with atrocious ping
>”this netcode is bad!”

Every time

host

K. Rool is garbage no matter how you spin it, he is just the great filter for garbage players. He is far and away the easiest zoner to play versus and is the worst heavy by almost all accounts. Has no strong gimmick shit like bowser's OOS up B or decent framedata moves like Ganon's nair. All he can do is camp and hope to get a grab on you to close out a stock.

It's not "netcode", but even just giving us that info and giving the option to refuse that fight would go a long way.

Lol k, what region? And show me which posts are yours. I’m in the UK. Not playing if you’re not from the same continent sorry.

Pikachu isn't a gimmicky character and amsa is far from "consistently" in top 8? Have either one of those players ever taken a set off of Hbox or even Mango?

The game should at least tell me if my opponent is next door or is all the way in South Korea

A fair complaint.

>Few moves are punishable on shield/whiff

This is the big one for me.

>input delay isn't an issue
Alright nigger

mid tier dodge

>way too much input lag
>input buffer that causes bullshit to happen constantly
>character balance is all over the place with the best being worlds apart from even middle tiers
shit online
>platforms feel like fucking ass to play around
>recovery is free for half the cast
>not enough hitstun

Because by forcing everyone to be a part of the stupid GSP system, you get elitism (no pun intended).

This results in spastic gremlins trying desperately to have the biggest numbers, so they can wave them around at the other autists obsessed with that shit.

Everyone else who just wants to have a casual match is caught in the middle of this, is most likely put-off playing altogether and will abandon the game. Leaving online to be infested purely with these overly competitive scumbags.

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Hmmmm something smells in this thread

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I cannot control who the matchmaking places me vs. and expecting everyone to own a LAN adapter on a console that doesn't ship with one is a tall order. When playing vs. people in my area with wired connections it's certainly playable but 100% worse than if I were playing with them on Dolphin in Melee. It's noticeably shit nonetheless. It's a shame because Young Link is damn near impossible to play online if you prefer his proper aggressive combo-oriented playstyle as opposed to projectile camping.

Pretty much this, my issue is with the obvious tierwhoring "I main him/her because I win" cunts riddled all over quickplay. Like, I know you weren't diehard persona fans before Joker was in smash so why pretend like you were?

>I'm not projecting
>Now watch you me project
Nobody complains when Pikachu, Yoshi and falcon win sets. You're a retard.

None of those characters are gimmicky except debatably Yoshi and hardly any of them win sets in high level play. A testament to Melee's balance.

>people can't find a character they don't know fun

People just like bitching. Fighting projectile users with non-projectile users is about as annoying as it is in any other fighting game.

I like playing competitive, but even if I wanted to have a goofy casual match every now and then I can't without the risk of punishing the other player who doesn't.

I'll never get why they got rid of for fun/glory

Do you seriously think the average zoomer picks Samus because they actually played a metroid game and not just because it's easy to win in lag by camping under platforms on battlefield since parrying is inconsistent and much harder to do? How could anyone in their right mind find a playstyle like that fun?

Yes, both of them have on Mango in this past year. aMSa did it to Hbox last year and Axe has before but not in recent memory

Characters that are good tend to be fun characters. Low tiers like DDD are bad because they have one-dimensional gameplans while Palutena can basically use any playstyle she wants effectively

Post the set where axe beats mang0 I literally do not believe you.

>is about as annoying as it is in any other fighting game.
Not really, it's worse. Smash has platforms to take away options. If you play an aerial heavy character, you're basically playing disadvantage right from the get go vs a projectile heavy character.

The game plays a tad too slow. Most of the moves that characters have hit like a wet noodle well into 130%+ while other moves hit like a fucking train while at 40%. You feel quite invested in each stock, since it takes so long to end one, but they can be ended very early to the same stale move you've gotten hit with 20x already since it's the only attack your opponent can even kill with.

its due to a difference in balance.
melee high tiers are better characters than the rest of the cast, and are very fun to play.
ultimate has been pounded by patches resulting in a very balanced yet neutered experience.

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youtu.be/lUbDhvUT-k0
The latest one
Mango has been beating him in their recent sets

No one complains about Ridley AKA the best character in the game

You do realize that people are starting to think Pikachu and Yoshi are "cheese" characters right? Axe mopping up all these fox players is making them seethe about Pikachu's up air spike on Twitter and their drone fanbases are starting to believe them, people have been saying that "all amsa does is ledge camp egg throw" for like a year now

Anyone want to play?

I don't like any. Non of them are fun to play anymore. And I'm not throwing in extra shekels to gamble on the DLC.

>How could anyone in their right mind find a playstyle like that fun?
because they do? Are you too autistic to realize people have fun with different playstyles?

I had fun a ton of fun with it and I got very good at the game but it got really stale after 600 hours.

I agree with you but majority of players aren't good enough to capitlize on this. Instead the most fun character is whatever character they can use their tools braindeadly

Tell that to this guy I personally have not seen people complaining about either of these characters so maybe I'm out of the loop just a little bit. Unless it's just Fiction complaining, fuck that retard

>Spamming the same move over and over again while using network latency to make it harder to play against
Yes I absolutely 100% cannot fathom how anyone could find doing this in the long term is fun. They do it because it's a low effort way to win, not because the act of doing it is fun.

>Few moves are punishable on shield/whiff
psst, got a protip for you: shield or spotdodge the inevitable followup and THEN punish. aerials are safe, tilts and grabs are not. opponent landing with an attack and shielding? grab. opponent landing with an attack and jumping immediately to land with another? jump out of shield and stuff it. Counterplay exists. Good buttons make for aggressive gameplay. Its good to have them.

For Fun and For Glory was the only thing Smash 4 got right.

Pikachu isn't a cheese pick, him being a soft spacies counter has been generally accepted for years. Who is complaining about his tail shine? As for Yoshi, he is the only character with a "parry" so I can see it but I'd love to see where you're getting Pikachu seething from.

have you never played with a casual? Literally what they fine fun is whatever is easiest to pull off. you'd have to have autism not to realize this.

Ridley and Kamui are the only characters I've never seen anyone complain about playing against. Possibly Dr. Mario, Shiek, Ice Climbers and Pit too.

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>Conversation started off about how Meleefags hate dishonest characters
>Meleefags literally proving my point for me since apparently fucking Pikachu being good is enough for them to want him shut down
lol