Bayo 1 better than DmC1

>Bayo 1 better than DMC1
Kamiya did refine and add a lot to his concepts from DMC in Bayo but also added some questionable things and lost a bit of what made DMC1 unique. Both are great and it comes down to preference.
>Bayo 2 better than DMC2
Platinum's worst game is better than DMC2. There's no point here.
>DMC5 barely as good as Bayo 2
I think the best way for me to refute this is that Bayo 2 has a strong first playthrough but gets worse every time you go back to it after, while DMC5 has a solid first playthrough but gets better and better until at least the end of DMD. Also Bloody Palace as one straight shot with Warm Up as a side mode kicks the shit out of Witch Trials and the wasted potential of Tag Climax.
>Bayo 3 Kamiya's magnum opus
He's been working on Project GG, dumbass.

Not sure why I responded to bait but it felt alright.

Bayo 2 makes a lot of un needed changes to the combat and adds Umbran Climax. Overall it's a worse combat system.

>Bayo 2 better than DmC2
The wet shit I took this morning is better than DMC2, that's not saying much
>DmCV is just barely as good as Bayo 2
LMAO okay this is some epic bait

>Bayonetta 3?
>more like Vaporware 3!

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You're correct. 2 has worse enemy patterns, made Witch Time a requirement instead of a mechanic you're weened off of as difficulties increase, has less complex weapon movelists (which is a shame because I love the concepts behind 2's weapons and how most of them feel), has ridiculously stringent score/time requirements for Plat/Pure Plat, etc.

2 does surpass the original in visual design, story, and having more endgame content to play around with like the Witch Trials and Tag Climax as well as 5 playable characters. The issue is that Tag Climax has a ton of cool unique encounters that you NEED to do the dumb tag mode to face and also two of the five characters (Rodin & Balder, who are fun as fuck) are locked to Tag Climax. Also 2's bosses are better in some ways and worse than others compared to 1; 1's were mostly dull besides the Jeanne fights while 2's are a little better when they're not flying bosses BUT Lumen Sage is a spaz that fucks with the rules of the game and not in a fun way. His fights are great spectacles but frustrating to perform well in (hence each replay being worse than the last in 2). I will say that Alrune is a very good boss and that Loptr is a much less annoying final boss than Jubileus.

You are correct except there are plenty of people who just call anyone who willingfully state their problems with the game as autistic or they are just mad Bayo 2 is exclusive. They themselves have probably only played through the game one time and went on to the next game. I bought a Wii U for this game and I was pretty disappointed. Not a trash fire but definitely a big step down in all aspects where it counts for an action game.

Because she does.

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Since this seems to be the CRAZY game thread I'll post here, holy fuck Viewtiful Joe is kicking my ass, it's gotta be Kamiya's hardest game. I just beat Leo, jesus fuck that fight was a pain. I kind of hate all of the boss fights in this game, they just aren't very fun apart form Alastor's. The normal enemies are fine apart from those ones that do a super long combo and just stop showing the hit indicators halfway through. Can anyone here who's good at the game give me tips? I feel like the best way to deal with everything is just zoom in + slow mo and punch.

Nah, people exaggerate. It's not really THAT less complex. Really, everyone's biggest complaint is the climax attacks and that the fact that bosses aren't gigantic monsters. Final boss was more like Jeanne, which disappointed people. Combat really isn't bad.

Bayo 2 is more complex than 1; enemies are faster and hit harder on the higher difficulties.

People just don't like that it's less of a combo game than the first one.

But the hardest difficulty keeps witch time because the devs had no idea that witch time wasn't the main mechanic of bayonetta, without witch time Bayo 1's hardest mode is still harder.

>But the hardest difficulty keeps witch time because the devs had no idea that witch time wasn't the main mechanic of bayonetta
No, they just changed the combat flow for the second game, streamlining it so strategy, reaction, and pattern memorization were more important than styling on enemies.

You basically have to predict the moves for a lot of things on Umbran Climax.

>lower case 'm'
what a tremendous faggot

>Strategy
Yes because spamming umbran climax all the time is really good strategy.

For bosses? If you're just trying to survive, then zoom slow mo punch is indeed the most efficient tactic.

VJ is a fairly different game to play for rank, though. Speed Up becomes a lot more important, and you have to plan out your attacks on scrub enemies, even after you stun them.

Yeah I don't think I'll ever play this game for rank, I just don't find it really that fun overall. A shame since I love pretty much all of Kamiya's other games, and I was liking it before the awful bosses.

Strategy comes from figuring out which weapons allow you to complete verses in enough time for PPs. I already said the game was built around slow down.

Sorry to hear that. It's probably Kamiya's best game for my money.

They did change the combat flow of 2, but not for the better. You're legitimately just looking for tells (which are less well-designed in 2 than 1, for the record) for attacks to dodge or parry to activate Witch Time so you can actually damage/combo an enemy, disengage when it wears off, and begin waiting again unless you've built Umbran Climax which allows you to freely take the offensive. Bayo 1's core mechanic wasn't WT but Offset, which allowed you to keep momentum while evading attacks by saving your place in your string.

Best description of Bayo 1's gameplay I've seen is that in Bayo 1 it's like you're white-water rafting and you've got to keep up with the flow of the river (the comparison being with DMC3-5, in which you, Dante/The Player, are the river itself, crashing against the rocks and shores that are enemies and bosses). Keeping with that logic, Bayo 2 is like a boat having to wait for a series of locks in a canal to change its elevation and allow it to move forward.

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DMC5 > Bayo 1 = DMC3 > Bayo 2 > DMC >>> DMC2

Like I said, the only thing they changed with 2 was making it less of a combo game.

This is for the better, as the core tenets of hack and slash is always strategy, reflex, and execution, not being "stylish."

Why do you think it's his best? I feel like I'm missing something with the game, the levels and the basic enemy fights are fine for the most part except for a couple of the dumb puzzle sections, but the boss fights which are usually my favorite things in action games are fucking god-awful here. The camera on the Rhino, Shark, and Another Joe fight are fucking awful, and in the case of the Another Joe and Leo fights it feels like you're trying to find ways to cheese the boss rather than fighting it legitimately.

Are you fucking retarded? Bayonetta 1 requires far more strategy, reflex and execution to play, because it isn't just >lol just bait witch time.

You clearly didn't play either game.

Why does every thread have to start with the shittiest bait?

>the core tenets of hack and slash is always strategy, reflex, and execution
Bayo 1's focus on Offset was this at its core. Being able to dodge aggressive enemies while maintaining your strings was paramount due to Wicked Weave enders being where a lot of your Damage and Score come from. Knowing the right string for a given scenario and keeping track of your Offset is everything you describe. Being "stylish" is a byproduct due to the cool animations and the visuals of weaving through enemy attacks while maintaining your offense.

Bayo 2 basically tells you to wait until you can dodge, blitz an enemy while Witch Time is up, and then wait again. There's a lot less flow to it, until you activate Umbran Climax, but most of the time UC is so strong that the defensive element is lost while it's active. Bayo 1 balanced offense and defense simultaneously while Bayo 2 forces you to switch back and force between them in a more stilted fashion.

You're retarded then, Bayonetta 1 takes more skill in the hardest difficulty than 2 which is just waiting for tells for crutch time so you can actually deal damage because the devs didn't understand the first game's gameplay.

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Bayonetta 1's enemies are slower and weaker than those in 2, and are more susceptible to less efficient strategies (because muh combos) than those in 2.

This makes them require objectively less strategy/slower reflexes/weaker execution to beat.

>because the devs had no idea that witch time wasn't the main mechanic of bayonetta
Next you're going to try and tell me that the Dodge Offset move you have to BUY as an upgrade is the main mechanic of Bayonetta.

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Yes because witch time was a crutch and not supposed to be a main gameplay mechanic you fucking tard. 2 had to make the attacks faster and basically make the game fucking turn based until you get umbran climax so you can get your free damage.

Post your bayo 1 medals, faggot.

>Bayonetta 1's enemies are slower and weaker than those in 2
Excuse me? The only ways in which 2's enemies were harder were in less-obvious tells (likely to make waiting to dodge correctly for WT slightly harder) and some of the demons having some fucking stupid attacks that almost felt like they weren't tested (a shame since I love the designs of all the demons).

You kind of have to learn how to really play it for it to click, hence playing for rank.

It's a very unorthodox game though, so I'm not sure it's worth bothering to do that if stuff like the camera is that much of a hassle for you.

>Dodge offset move you have to buy
So you've never played 1, thanks for outing yourself as just a shitposter.

You don't need all those words just to tell me "yes I didn't play either game".

>Muh combos
Ironic, since bayo 2 often focuses more on style over substance with it's set pieces

>Yes because witch time was a crutch and not supposed to be a main gameplay mechanic you fucking tard
The fact people like you exist battles me.

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>Game has tutorial for witch time.
>Game does not have tutorial for dodge offset.
>"Dude dodge offset is the core of the gameplay"
If that was true then it's a terribly designed game, what is it going to be, user? Which hill will you die on?

>less obvious tells
>and some of the demons having some fucking stupid attacks that almost felt like they weren't tested
These would be called "reasons the enemies in Bayo 2 were harder" user.

They were tested, I assure you.

Wonderful 101 has you buy your dodge (Spring) and parry (Guts) from the shop despite being the absolute cornerstone of your defense in that game. TF Devastation sells you the spin move and Shove when they're very important to optimizing the Overdrive mechanic. You have to buy Offensive Defense in Revengeance. Platinum for some reason sells you important moves and mechanics in the shop in their games, it's how they do things.

I've beaten both on all difficulties.

There's nothing in Bayo NSIC that's as demanding as Aesir or some of the challenge rooms in 2.

Yeah so that's why the hardest difficulty disables it, what game can disable the main mechanic without completely falling apart? Imagine playing MGR on revengeance and it just disabled zandatsu. It doesn't fucking work the entire game just stops working.

Bayonetta is designed around not needing witch time, therefore it's not the main mechanic.

Bayo 3 will have an OTS camera and a gameplay similar to nuGoW
screencap this

You clearly haven't or are just baiting

>Important
Yes.
But the central part of the gameplay?
No.
Witch time is Bayonetta's gimmick. Get over it.

>game removes witch time in the hardest difficulty, the way you're literally supposed to play the game
>NUH-HUH, WITCH TIME IS A MAIN MECHANIC!
Idiot.

You're supposed to experiment and actually read the files in the menu that FUCKING EXPLAIN DODGE OFFSET YOU RETARD, part of the fun of these games is figuring out the mechanics for yourself.

2 also removes the audio cues for enraged enemies while making their attacks faster, which is also harder, but just flat out bullshit and basically artificial difficulty because people react to audio faster than they do visual. However even with this being harder, Bayo 1's enemies are still harder anyway because you can't rely on witch time for a break, you're constantly on the move.

Post your medals then

I honestly have no idea how you have so much trouble grasping this. 2 has faster enemies that deal more damage; they are objectively harder.

>Bayonetta is designed around not needing witch time, therefore it's not the main mechanic.
It's the main mechanic, you like dodge offset a lot and I get that but it's not nearly as important as you think it is.

The challenge rooms in 2 often throw shit like Loptr + Alrune at the same time at you in Witch Trial 5, or many of Tag Climax's 3-star encounters with insane enemy groups or multiple bosses simultaneously. IIRC there's one where you literally fight all three Lumen Sage encounters at the same time. Of course those are harder because you're being thrown into the deep end (and even then you're forced to have either an AI or a friend help you fight them). TF Devastation's Challenge mode also has multiple boss fights at once but each fight is more balanced and the only 1v3 fight is against Skywarp/Thundercracker/Starscream which is really more two mini-bosses and a boss with a similar moveset to them that is less likely to commit to approaching you.

Holy fuck have we found a new autist? The Dodge Offset autist? I've seen him a few times blow the fuck up but never this hard.

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post your medals with timestamp, else you're just baiting for (You)s

The hardest difficulty removes a core mechanic to truly test your skills, yes. That does not mean all players are expected to play the hardest difficulty, it is not the "main" difficulty.
Normal is.

>Bayo 1's enemies are still harder anyway because you can't rely on witch time for a break, you're constantly on the move
No. Once again, see >but just flat out bullshit and basically artificial difficulty because people react to audio faster than they do visual
This is an argument that actually holds water. I'd still disagree, though; they don't have enough different moves where timing a dodge for all of them is too ridiculous.

>no arguments
You are the only one baiting.

Yet it boils down the game to just bait witch time and spam UC
Bayo 2 literally limits what you can actually do.
Are you this retarded? Again tell me how a game like revengeance would work without zandatsu. Tell me how w101 would work without unite morphs
Go on tell me.

>you like dodge offset a lot and I get that but it's not nearly as important as you think it is.
NSIC literally removes Witch Time outside of brief moments when you get perfect parries. If the final difficulty removes a mechanic, how is it essential to its core combat?
Normal is the main difficulty in the sense that it was balanced around being a player's first time through the game. Something like Witch Time is both part of the game's plot as it's an ability of Umbran Witches and part of helping players understand the importance of dodging and cutting their dodges close to attacks to be rewarded. In addition, once Offset is learned, Witch Time allows new players to more easily unloaded their Offset string onto an enemy as they're in slow motion and don't pose a threat for the next few seconds. The game is designed to be more stringent with it as the difficulty increases to test the player to be able to complete their strings in real-time.

Why must every thread be an argument?

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The point of Bayonetta and Kamiya's games isn't to play them on the normal difficulty, it's to play them at the hardest difficulty and perfect them. Bayonetta's gameplay is not based around witch time in Bayo 1, dodge offset plays a bigger role.

>I have no argument, so I'll just say they're one person and an autist

>Bayo 2 literally limits what you can actually do
That is literally what I said in my first post.

This doesn't have anything to do with the complexity or difficulty of the game.

>evading this hard
you can't post screenshots because the truth is you haven't played the game

And this, gentleman is why nobody likes discussing Bayonetta.
The Bayonetta elitist come out and start shitting all over the place.

Goodnight everyone.

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Almost like the game is designed around needing to abuse witch time and UC
>Enemies in 1 require less strategy
>A-aa-actually I said they do require more strategy this whole time!
Lmao you can't even remember what your own point is

Yes, yes it fucking does. It means the game is now about following a rigid structure for every battle and you can't experiment like you can in Bayo 1, especially since because EVERY attack in bayo 2 causes witch time, so you no longer have to worry about dodging multiple moves in a row.

because OP is an attention whore nigger who clearly hasn't played any bayo game.
just look at the thread, he wouldn't even post a screenshot

Based and Judgementpilled.

you do realize the game gradually throw more enemies that don't trigger WT, in order for you to used to not having WT. Even most alfheims requires dodge offset for you to get a Pure Plat. i don't know how you could think dodge offset isn't the core mechanic unless you didn't make any effort learning how to play the game.

Literally no reason for it to not be. Civil discussions don't settle much of anything and the arrogance of everyone here will obviously lead to arguments. It makes a funnier thread in the long run and honestly it shows the passion these nerds have for the games they fight for. As fucking cringe as it sounds, it's admirable to see this level of dedication for such a niche game.

>Unironically telling people that if they didn't play the highest difficulty they didn't truly play the game.
Lol I'm out, enjoy your thread fag.
It's just one guy screaming that his idea of what the game is doesn't connect well with what other people perceive the game to be.
He claims that the Witch Time mechanic, which is Bayonetta's first and most commonly used power both in gameplay and in the plot, is not the core mechanic. The ability you have to get from the shop that has no tutorial is apparently the main mechanic, and he's screeching at everyone who says otherwise.

I get that, but everyone just being as toxic as humanly possible about everything all the time here is so fucking soul destroying after awhile.

Here is some sexy Bayo to ease my pain.

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You're the one who seems to be confused.

Requiring more strategy means the game allows for less viable ones. Ditto execution and reflex: the faster enemies are, the less room there is for sub-efficient tactics.

obviously he doesn't care because he only made this thread just for the sake of seeing people argue, proof is he can't post screenshots of his medals because he hasn't actually played the game and is just pretending

Blacked, bleached and any of it's variations are cancer.

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Are you this retarded? Again tell me how a game like revengeance would work without zandatsu. Tell me how w101 would work without unite morphs
Go on tell me.

You won't, because you fucking cant. Yet Bayonetta works 200% perfectly fine without witch time.
Now try playing NSIC without Dodge offset.
Oh what's that? You get completely fucked? Yeah I thought so.
>Dodge offset from the shop
Yeah okay you didn't even play the game.
Try reading what strategy actually means before you try to pretend like you have more than 10 braincells.

>It means the game is now about following a rigid structure for every battle and you can't experiment like you can in Bayo 1
True. As mentioned, enemies aren't styled on (they can even break out of combos; a very welcome change).

>yes it fucking does.
Untrue. The lower number of options means the opposite in terms of complexity and challenge.

I can't understand that to a certain extent, but it certainly shouldn't just be holding hands and singing songs all the time. Emotions are needed in discussions.

yeah just skip 2
some people will say that you should never skip games or that playing that shit game will make you appreciate 3 more but honestly just play 3

Bayonetta 2 is better than 1 in every single way.