How can you convince a fundamentalist leftist Christian who believes in free will that equality is a meme and looking out for you and your own is better? They take equality of a spiritual sense on faith so reasoning from a scientific/realist perspective won't work (IQ etc). Specifically, I'm looking for arguments that 1.) won't challenge their faith in God/Jesus 2.) won't convince them of predestination (free will forces them to try to convert/give charitably to other groups) 3.) challenge equality enough to bring them from the left to the right
If we can't do this the left will increase its hold on the Catholics and globally, the right will never recover. Currently, the only real thing keeping them on our side is the abortion issue. This also applies to Protestants but to a lesser degree.
The Catholic Question
I don't know what you're going on about but Calvinism isn't what the Bible teaches. Nor did the church before Catholicism was invented believe in Calvinist type ideas.
My current ideas are to 1.) modify the equal spiritual value argument to mean that it's possible that the idea that human beings have inherent value is faulty. 0 equals 0 and it's not like humans have any worth to a perfect God. What exactly can humans do? The only real response is that like a pet humans bring joy to God from just watching, but this is kind of stretching it on their end. Regardless, I don't really know how to move this argument the next step towards radicalizing leftists to the right.
>equality is a meme and looking out for you and your own is better
to do this you have to disprove god
God didn't make people equal. What are you autists going on about. I don't think either of you remotely understand what the Bible says.
2.) demonstrate that leftism is inherently opposed to capitalism and therefore civilization and can only end in the collapse of all modern societies. For the natsocs who just got triggered even Nazi Germany had capitalism and for the tankies, the USSR did too otherwise they'd have collapsed faster. Basically culture of any kind requires a concentration of capital because someone needs to pay the artists and the artists need to get enough to not have to be hunter-gatherers all day.
The real issue is that there's nothing in Christianity, to my knowledge, that opposes the collapse of civilization so I also don't know how to proceed here.
>God didn't make
this part of your post is true
spiritual equality
everyone can be saved spiritually
of course physically there's differences and I don't think the Bible has anything against recognizing that but modern leftism is home of secularized protestantism so leftists rely on Christian morals/teachings even though their practices completely go against the Bible's teachings 50% of the time. Easy enough to disprove their underlying arguments when they're atheist but when they do believe in God it's a lot harder
So you're unaware how in 1 Corintians 12 we're told about how we're all parts in the body of Christ with different things we're good at and things we're weak at individually. Or in genesis how God made woman as a helper for man. Or how Paul wrote about the head of woman is man? You missed a lot. You should read the Bible one day.
Catholicism is founded on immutable objective morality. The left is founded on moral relativism. Actual Catholic teaching is also that the separation of church and state is a meme and that the ideal government is a monarchic theocracy, democracy is just 5 wolves and 3 sheep holding a vote on what's for dinner.
Catholicism isn't Christianity though. Makes an idol of various things found in Christianity. Nothing more.
Define my "own?"
Is pic related my own? Simply because our skin pigmentation is similar he is "my own?"
>Catholicism isn't Christianity though. Makes an idol of various things found in Christianity. Nothing more.
You are like little babby. Now watch this:
>The Pope isn't actually Catholic.
They're literally the hardest type of person to convince of a scientific worldview.
Like worse than the worst theocrat, creationist larping Fuentesfag.
TIL: islam is older than "christianity"
I don't really care what your spin is on the idol of the pope. Praying to mary is divination and strictly forbidden by Christ. Nowhere in the bible does it say to pray to dead Christians. Saints are living people who are following Christ. Don't pray to me when I die please.
The goal of the arguing would be to not change their core beliefs but to convince them to essentially care less about the out-group and redirect their service/charity towards the in-group.
Maybe going about it in a way to convince them to give charitably to those who can make it go further (white men) would work, but the issue of voting for increased freedoms for lower-class people still isn't fully resolved in my mind. How can we revive ethnic pride in these Christians to that of the Christians of old without having them lose their faith? How did previous generations justify their racial pride, or has this weakness been the reason society has moved left since feudalism?
If he believes in your ideology than he 100% is just like the deadbeat in your family still are part of your family. It's the fault of the collective that we lost control over our less equipped brothers and let them degenerate
Catholics believe in predestination, specifically single predestination. Just thought I'd throw that out there before I go back to the dreamworld and become as real as Gabriel for a while.
Catholic: Calvinist ideas aren't in the Bible.
Also Catholic: Lets worship Mary.
I'm not a Catholic, liar. I follow Christ. What I believe is exactly what the first century Christians believed who were taught directly by the apostles. Not what the gnostic Agustine believed when he invented the Catholic church in the 4th century.
Do you ever ask other people to pray for you? It's no different than asking Mary to pray for you. Nearly all theological arguments Protestants make are pure autism. The ecclesiological arguments are generally valid.
That's the big meme though why do Catholics try to convert people so fiercely if their going to heaven or hell and all earthly action is out of the converter's control/influence anyway? In that scenario it's obvious that you would leave spiritual matters to God and focus on the material conditions of the world, and therefore the well being of whites/asians who can control it? Why champion the inferior men and women when all they do is cause society to degenerate and make Christian living harder?
this it makes no sense
Mary is dead. Engaging in divination is very different than going to the church (the body of Christ which is the people -- alive people). Why do you ignore the rules against divination in the Bible? Dead people are dead. And Christ is our ONE AND ONLY mediator to God the Father. Stop ignoring Christ, please.
>leave spiritual matters to God and focus on the material conditions of the world,
Prioritizing the material over the spiritual is the #1 cause of society degenerating.
By that logic, the early Christians arent Christians
>I ignore the throne room vision of Revelation and the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews
Gold star Protestantism. Also practically all the early Christians before Constantine like Hippolytus pray to saints and whatnot. So by your logic, they are idol worshippers
>I'm going to create my own definitions for a vocabulary I frame the conversation around so that I don't have to actually think and can just stay comfy in my bubble of circular reasoning.
Jesus talked to Moses after Moses died. So Jesus engaged in divination according to your definition. So Jesus was a sinner. But he wasn't. So your definition is wrong.
catholics actually argue that they don't worship mary
Looking after you and your own implies fighting against the pigs that slave you away everyday leaving you no free time. There's no love without hatred.
Good luck with that. If you think those that spoke the same tongue the bible was written in, and were taught directly by the apostles themselves didn't understand the Bible as well as you do in your ways that weren't invented for hundreds of years later, you'll have a lot of explaining to do to God. I'm guessing the real problem here is that you love your sin too much, and use these things only as an excuse to keep them.
Not that it's even mary though, just a remnant from babylonian paganism (also seen in many other religions)
Yes and jesus went to preach to the dead in Hades during the three days. You're not Jesus. Nor am I. He gave us rules. One of them is to not engage in divination with the dead, so stop it. Give up your idolatry and follow Christ.
Christian = follower of Christ
Rome does not follow Christ, they actually deny Christ and his teaching.
>Hippolytus pray to saints
kek Hippolytus didn't pray to saints. Find one writing of his that says to do so. That crap wasn't invented till hundreds of years later.
>Jesus was a sinner
protestant reading comprehension at it's finest
Pope even wears a dagon fish hat. Weird stuff.
It is only a problem for your position, not mine.
>And of these finally, take note of the days on which they die that we may be able to celebrate their commemorations among the memorials of the martyrs although Tertullus,1i our very faithful and very devoted brother, who does not fail in that matter regarding the care of bodies, among other things which, in his solicitude and care, he bestows upon the brethren in every duty of service, has written and is writing and indicating to me the days on which our blessed brethren in prison pass through the exit door of a glorious death to immortality. And, for their commemorations, let there be celebrated here by us Oblations and Sacrifices which, with protection of the Lord, we shall celebrate soon with you.(Letter 12, pg.35-36.)
Now tell me which non idol worshipping sect like yours make commemorations of saints and martyrs through the eucharist? I will tell you the answer, the idolatrous Catholics and Orthodox, not you
Popes wrote the Koran to continue their persecution of true Christianity in modern times.
The Pope isn't Catholic though.
The Vat-of-sin even thinks it can change God's Law (and they have to so their blind followers don't question their idol worship)
not really it's prioritizing the material needs of inferior people with a pseudo-religious reasoning that's doing it. The reason it's like this is that inferior people are inherently more focused on immediate material pleasures instead of long term and cultural goals
Liar
All liars will have their part in the lake of fire. Repent and follow Christ. Listen to Christ when he tells us not to engage in divination.
Satanism can be seen throughout the Vat-of-sin and in their unBiblical practices (over 85% of their practices are from traditions of men and not the Bible). The Catholic Church even openly admits their adoption of paganism and their rejection of the Bible.
1. Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh3 , may recognize him.(see pg 73)
preteristarchive.com
The current jesuit pope is a "boy lover".
By this logic, St Hippolytus who contradicts this stupid Protestant, is an idolater who engages in divination
What does this have to do with praying to the dead asking them to do things? Stay on topic please.
>he doesn’t know
The Catholic Church only pretends to care about scandals and corruption once exposed, but until it's exposed they cover it up and continue their raping of children and nuns and what have you.
Where does this say he was praying to the dead asking them to do things? What are you even talking about? Remembering the dead and respecting their memory is normal human behavior.
>if it has anything to do with money it’s capitalism
This is like saying if someone is religious they’re abrahamic, complete nonsense
He invokes the dead so that he may obtain the same lot of martyrdom as them. There is no reason for him to invoke them as if they are alive unless
1)He thinks they can hear him
2)Somehow by exegeting OT Texts, he is actually somehow participating in the events narrated.
Either way both refutes you because both shows Hippolytus invoking dead people and regarding them as being present and able to hear them. If he does not have these presuppositions, then we can only ask why did he invoke them?
1. Take me, O Samuel, the heifer brought to Bethlehem, in order to show the king begotten of David, and him who is anointed to be king and priest by the Father.
2. Tell me, O blessed Mary, what that was that was conceived by thee in the womb, and what that was that was born by thee in thy virgin matrix. For it was the first-born Word of God that descended to thee from heaven, and was formed as a first-born man in the womb, in order that the first-born Word of God might be shown to be united with a first-born man.
3. And in the second (form),—to wit, by the prophets, as by Samuel, calling back and delivering the people from the slavery of the aliens. And in the third (form), that in which He was incarnate, taking to Himself humanity from the Virgin, in which character also He saw the city, and wept over it.
Isaiah 65:21-22
>"And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."
Damn this thread went from a question about practical political debate to the old Catholics aren't real Christians conspiracy. even if it's true, that doesn't make our task of changing people's political actions any easier! rip I sound like a reddit moderator fuck me
Again non argument. Because generic remembering doesn't regard what is remembered as present. Hippolytus regards those he invokes as present. Hence why he invokes them.
Good job running away
I'm not a protestant. I am of the Church. The one that existed before yours was invented. You protest my Church -- Christ's original church.
no as I point out later in the post I'm specifically referring to the accumulation of capital in individual hands ie private property rights
IN all instances, Hippolytus invokes dead figures to tell him something which is literally the very thing considered "divination" by that Protestant Baptist idiot.
This is why rather than explain the context of these sayings from Hippolytus, he just waves it away, lumping it as generic remembering which cannot be because I don't directly entreat my dead grandmother when I remember her, neither do you
>conspiracy
Nice mental gymnastics.
Your church is false because as shown, the people you claim as your church practice doctrines which are idolatrous
Justin Martyr also contradicts you because he believes in Baptismal Regeneration and the Real Presence
Oops
I don't know what your buzzwords are about. I only use terms from the Bible or describe the process. Must be a symptom of your new age religion invented hundreds of years after Christ.
>invokes
lol
you think a man remembering and respecting dead saints means he's praying to them asking them to pray for him? Look just get over yourself and your idolatry, understand Christ is our one and only mediator to God the Father. Stop the nonsense and just come to Christ. It's simple.