HMMMMMMMMM

MGs and DDs nigga

This. They were supposed to charge him for possessing a machinegun instead they charged him for not paying a tax that he wasn't allowed to pay. It's not happening.

NFA: No Fun Act. almost everything gun owners want is in there, from MGs to SB(x)

Possession of an Unregistered Machine Gun, which must be registered with the NFA, which you cannot do post-86.

If they fucked up the charge there would have been a confession of error. There was none mentioned in the brief filed by the SG's office. If they fucked up the charge it also would have been caught before it got to this stage.

What do they mean by remanding it to a superior court? Does that mean that it will get adjudication (on the tax side) despite the charges being dismissed?

So can someone translate it into retardese for me? Please?

get the fuck out of here, you can't even *spell* prosecutor

They're arguing about whether the tax levied on NFA items in the form of the stamp meets the established definitions of the kind of tax that Congress can levy. The details are relatively arcane.

So if it doesn’t, does that make the NFA null and void?

Not the whole thing, it'd force them to choose between opening the MG registry back up or that section would be overturned. The core issue IIRC is whether you can call something a "tax" when you don't allow people to pay it and have no intentions of doing so.

I think I understand. If congress imposes the tax on machine guns, they have to have a mechanism with which to settle the bill. In other words, they can't levy the tax and then not allow you to pay it. Am I understanding that correctly?

Yup, its actually a whole thing with a special legal term for it IIRC but i dont recall it off the top of my head. For a tax to be a tax, and not a restriction by another name, it has to be payable and actually seek to generate revenue. Just recently the feds made this exact argument in a case regarding obamacare, citing that it was not technically a tax because it doesn't seek to generate revenue. This could make for a very awkward situation if they tried to make the exact opposite argument with the same SCOTUS who just agreed with them previously.

Suppose it went that far, and the SCOTUS actually applied that logic, that if the Obamacare tax wasn't, then this isn't either, and Congress can't impose this fee. What would the immediate aftermath look like? Long term? Open registry? Total prohibition? What would the default ruling look like, I wonder?

>they might have to choose between ObamaCare and NFA
I'd support universal healthcare if they'd give up on NFA bullshit. That's a compromise I accept.

Mags and DDs dumbass.

So if you get to have the toys you want you'll let them do something that'd benefit you massively if you ever needed it.
How very noble and generous of you.

>What would the immediate aftermath look like?
Registry would have to be opened in a "relatively timely fashion". Expect a hew and cry from grabbers everywhere about "muh trump appointees, think of the chilluns" and attempts in the house/senate to put forth an outright ban on MGs. Also expect that the feds will drag their feet until sued into compliance while crossing their fingers that some new law is passed so that they don't have to open it back up.
>Long term?
If some sort of actual ban is passed then we're back to square one and its time to go back to court. If one doesn't pass then expect it to become a new priority of the dems moving forward, and one that's much more attainable than an AWB. Best case scenario is we get a reopened registry and there isn't enough political willpower to stop it.

>prosecuter

I never owed them a fucking thing, so yea.

No, I have health insurance because I'm not an unemployed idiot. I know who benefits from UHC, and it's a lot of fucking idiots. But, I'd support if for my toys.

Oh god i'm gonna fucking cum

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If the registry reopened the stamp wait times would be measured in years. Everybody would be applying.

Why does it take so long in the first place? Even if it's not automated (which it should be) I can't imagine paper pushers taking multiple years to just run a background check and record a serial number without purposefully stalling

You shouldn't be. They pulled their trump card.
>pass illegal law
>enforce illegal law
>admit its illegal
>get sued to overturn law
>drop charges once you know you might lose
>keep enforcing illegal law

and what's stopping somebody from taking them to court and forcing them to admit it's illegal?

They will say you don't have standing unless they prosecute you.

If they do prosecute you because you broke the law and they found out and you are actually a sympathetic defendant (as in not a gang member thug who rapes children in his spare time when not beating his girlfriend) then they will just drop the case like what happened here so it can't be challenged by the higher courts.

>the stamp wait times would be measured in years
But what if there wasn't a stamp?

Not him, and not a lawyer but I think it has something to do with in order for someone to sue they have to have damages they're attempting to seek, and so you'd have to do what they call illegal, get sent to jail or w/e, and then sue over being sent to jail.

one office with 12 clerks do all the processing for the entire country.

>jeez i guess i'll take easy NFA stuff plus reking priveate insurance companies but i WONT LIKE IT

hey i never get to post hthis

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They've been pulling this dodge with 80% parties for awhile now.
cnn.com/2019/10/11/us/ar-15-guns-law-atf-invs/index.html

By being the test case. You'll spend boat loads of money defending yourself, you'll spend time in the clink, and you might still lose and have to spend more time in the clink.

>get caught with illegal MG
>get forceably arrested, killed if you resist, maybe killed even if you dont
>go to jail
>may or may not get bail
>get found guilty
>appeal
>may or may not get bail
>found guilty
>may stay in jail or get bail
>appeal
>found guilty
>may stay in jail or get bail
>appeal to SCOTUS
>Hundreds of thousands of dollars burned on lawyers, years spent in court or jail, may or may not be found in favor of
To challenge a law in the US you have to have "standing", which means getting charged with breaking it. Oh, and there's literally nothing stopping the prosecutor from doing the same thing to you right before the last step and dropping the charges, the other 99.99% of people he sends to jail for breaking it will run out of money or take a plea deal before they reach the point where he has to consider that so NBD as far as he's concerned.

Assume the NFA gets repealed or otherwise altered in its de facto enforcement such that the machine gun registry is reopened. Don't you think this would risk dems being able to push for an outright AWB or new restrictions WORSE than we have now? Just imagine if this were hitting the fan as the election happens and if trump loses

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what the fuck

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Wait nvm thats for the state route federal is more like
>may or may not bail
>district court
>appeal
>may or may not bail
>circuit court
>may or may not bail
>SCOTUS
>may or may not hear
>may or may not agree

Yeah. That's how it is.
Now the real kicker: The Hughes amendment was not legally passed in the first place. It lost the vote by a huge margin and it was still sent to the president's desk anyway.

youtu.be/a6Mx2UcSEvQ?t=359

But muh verbal vote

Then whats the way around this? It's obviously an abortion of justice. whats stopping them from using this for every other abomination of a law they want to pass? (>inb4 lol nothing), Could some 2A group with funding just go looking for /k/ autists in prison for making MGs in their garage and file a suit on their behalf?
Unbelievable that it's even allowed now that we can get recorded votes in a couple seconds

>Unbelievable that it's even allowed now that we can get recorded votes in a couple seconds
They didn't even really have an excuse back in '86 but now they really have no excuse yet they tried to pass a $2.2 TRILLION stimulus on a voice vote.

There is very little that can be done. The existing legal channels require a huge amount of time, money, and cooperation from SCOTUS. If a lower court rules against you then SCOTUS can simply refuse to hear your appeal, and that's the end of the line.

So, if I understand the legalese here its something like this:

1: The NFA is a tax on certain firearm related items.
2: Being caught with an unregistered NFA item is, in it's simplest sense, tax evasion.
3: If the govt does not allow you to pay the tax, then logically you cannot later be prosecuted for not paying it.

If Trump and Biden both die of Wuhan Cough, I'll start worrying about that.

And if a lower court rules for you, the government can choose not to risk an appeal.

God damn could you guys imagine if the NFA was actually repealed during our lifetimes?

>dat new service at your LGS that charges $25 to professionally dremel out your lowers, drill a third hole and install an auto sear (FA BCG sold separately)
>a bunch of people suddenly "finding" their long departed great grandpa's looted full auto Thompson and MP40s
>"nah nigga, I ain't bout that home invasion life no mo, last week some racysiss cracka killed Jamal with one dem machine guns he was dead in 3 seconds mayne"

Its like the Cubs winning the world series, I never thought it was possible until it actually happens. There's an entire generation of people who were born under the oppressive yolk of the NFA, lived their entire lives without knowing what true freedom was, and sadly died before it was repealed. Please Jesus let it end now.

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A chicken in every pot and a full auto suppressed in every hand!!!

If you get caught with an NFA roulette (suppressed SBR machine gun) is it 3 separate charges or just 1 because it's all on one gun

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2
a weapon cannot legally be both a machine gun and SBR under the NFA, it would be a machine gun
but suppressors are separate items

Machine guns cannot be SBR’s.
I think

I never understood why people refuse to comply to cucked anti-gun laws but shit their pants and refusing to follow the NFA. Why do they want to just partially cuck themselves in Minecraft?

NFA is a much higher cost than something like a state level NY SAFE act violation. Having a suppressor or MG unregistered is a much, much worse violation than having 1 or 2 extra rounds in your mag than you should.

Because the ATF doesn't generally enforce much of anything on the plebs, but if they decide to do it, they make a huge example out of you.

This

ATF is a tiny organization without many people, but when they catch someone in the act it's epic. Think of them like an MMO tank unit: slow, you can't have many of them, but they hit hard and will never go away

So the perceived penalty is the only thing forcing people to comply? So if states just ratchet up the penalties you’ll cuck out? I’m glad I don’t live in a shit state surrounded by nonpatriots

Holy fuck, an MMO? You’re an embarrassment. Do you liken politicians to Harry Potter or Star Wars characters too?

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So it sounds as if this situation is almost like a de facto anullment of the NFA as long as you are an otherwise upstanding citizen

No, I'm trying to shit on your mentality. Have some fun for once

I live in a state with very permissive laws, I'm just providing a rationale for following really restrictive gun laws.

>prosecuter
Yeah I'm sure you passed the BAR exam with flying colors

i thought the exact same thing, kek

Cucking out to the IRS may finally be worth it after all these years, paying taxes could result in a reopened MG registry at the least

It could be, or you could spend 10 years in federal prison or hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to fight it through the courts.

Feel like rolling the dice?

No, but if enough /k/ autists and retards who were already in jail could get some representation by a larger organization (GOA) they might have a case

Technically the NFA of 1934 covers MG's, SBS's, SBR's, and supressors. The regs on DD's and AOW's were added in the GCA expansion pack of 1968. But collectively I guess they are all considered the NFA at this point.

>MG's, SBS's, SBR's, and supressors
All the fun shit normal people either already know how to use or could learn how in about 5 seconds? DD aren't familiar to most and AOW is the garbage bin of gun classifications

>MG's
>normal people either already know how to use or could learn how in about 5 seconds
yeah I'd like to see your group at 5 yards after the first 5 seconds on a machine gun

Very, free. You either have millions and can fight any prosecution to a standstill or do not and get fucked in the ass whenever they feel like it. Two-tiered justice ftw.

I'm gettin a boner.

Stop using apostrophes incorrectly please.

You'd have to be a spaz to not get everything on paper at those distances.

Here's a hypothetical.
Imagine that there were an upstanding citizen with a respectable occupation (i.e. an engineer with a fancy diploma), a valid non-criminal motive to produce machine guns (i.e. an interest in small arms engineering), and a willingness to live in and out of jail for the next decade (e.g. until he is 33 years old) in order to repeal the NFA. Imagine that this hypothetical individual sent an application for a new tax stamp for a machine gun and (when this application is refused) produces the applied for and rejected machine gun solely for personal use. This produced machine gun, if it were not a machine gun, does not fall into any of the other NFA categories (i.e. it is a rifle with a 16in barrel). Imagine that he were then prosecuted for this and made the defense, as discussed in this thread, that the prohibition of new machine guns does not constitute a tax.
If the government were to choose to drop the charges after it became clear that they would lose on these grounds, is there any avenue to force such a case higher? Assume that he is determined to see this through and willing to risk the possibility of the criminal case potentially ruling against him in higher court.

>is there any avenue to force such a case higher?
No.
You literally have no case whatsoever once they drop the charges. That's why they do it. It's the legal equivalent of an ejection seat for them. They cut their losses and fuck off so you can't screw them in the long run.
Also you are forgetting that the courts can simply refuse to hear your appeal. SCOTUS rejects cases all the time, and they have rejected quite a few gun cases in recent years.

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that's the point

>is there any avenue to force such a case higher?
I believe, in theory, they could petition the Supreme Court early before exhausting all other avenues and they could accept it but the chances of that are pretty damn low as they just don't seem to want to take 2A cases period let alone go that far out of their way to do it.

I'm pretty sure it's possible for them to make a ruling even if the case gets dismissed at lower levels, just as I said incredibly unlikely. The few times I can think of where something similar happened was with some copyright trolling cases where the judge would not allow the plaintiff to dismiss the case because he found out how illegitimate the whole operation was and started issuing fuckloads of sanctions.

Can you not also take this from a different angle and sue that your right to own a machine gun is violated (a la Heller vs. DC)?

>not fall into any of the other NFA categories (i.e. it is a rifle with a 16in barrel).
It doesn't anyway, it's a machinegun.

Is there anything to stop a cooperative pro-constitution government representative from charging someone with the intent of seeking appeal all the way up the chain, including seeking no bail during the endeavor?
What positions are required?

Likewise, if a tax or permit is required for a constitutional right, is there any reason I can't jump through the hoops and then challenge the law by claiming my standing is the damages incurred by paying money and spending time jumping through the hoops of an unconstitutional law?

The statement is that, even if that weren't the case, it still wouldn't fall into any other category. The motivation being to limit this case specifically to machine guns, where the law is weakest. If the machine gun were, for example, a full auto AR with a 14 inch barrel, a prosecutor may try to make an argument related to paying the tax stamp for a SBR. It is possible (though dishonest) to make the argument that the $200 tax stamp for a SBR is a valid "tax," but such an argument is entirely invalid for machine guns, with the registry closed. By limiting the case strictly to the machine gun registry, the most vulnerable part of the NFA (and only the most vulnerable part) is made the focus of the trial.

>a prosecutor may try to make an argument related to paying the tax stamp for a SBR.
Sure, they could, but they'd be fucking wrong. Once it's a machinegun none of the other definitions matter.

You're missing the point. Keep things focused and limited. It doesn't matter if the prosecutor is right or wrong (we both understand that they would be wrong in this case), it is to prevent the argument from even coming up in the first place.

>MGs
>All the fun shit normal people either already know how to use or could learn how in about 5 seconds
Say that to my local indoor range that rents MGs ceiling...

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If the argument holds no water then what does it matter if it comes up?

Never shot a mac11 I see?

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We want to eliminate the chance of the case being dismissed due to them being wrong that way. Remember these are laws that were written with the constitution turned upside down. We're not seeking the relief of not being prosecuted successfully, we're seeking the upside law itself be overturned.

It wastes time and detracts from the point, just like this train of conversation.

>pull it in tight
>don't magdump
>short bursts
>????
>PROFIT

Machine pistols and similar are a different ballgame.

>fa fun
>dont magdump
ngmi

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>says the guy posting on a forum dedicated to firearms enthusiasts, not normal people

A "timely" mass shooting

FA isn't for fun it's for suppressive fire and also when there are too many watermelons and pumpkins on the range

Can't we gather these cases and file a class action law suit against them for malicious prosecution?

No.

gunowners.net/cgi-bin/ttx.cgi?cmd=newticket

Do it faggot. Make a case

They're not, though. "Machinegun" as defined in the NFA includes those, as well as what are considered machine guns or submachine guns in other contexts.

Why not? They intentionally pursued a legal action and the case was dismissed in favor of the victim. As for the probable cause requirement, do we need to affirm that the law is unconstitutional prior or can that be part of the claim that they would have to refute? And can the history of them repeatedly dropping the cases whenever it looks like they'll have to argue to the end not be presented as an argument for them knowing they don't really have probable cause?

I wish I had more time in my life so that I could study law enough to answer these questions myself.

Pretty sure he meant in regards to the easy of usage/handling statement rather than in regards to law.

>They intentionally pursued a legal action
Because someone broke the law. They weren’t trying to threaten or influence or anything of the sort. Someone broke the law, got caught and got charged. The fact that the charges were dropped is immaterial

See also, US v Davis, 1993.
>feds catch dude with pistol with vfg
>judge tells them its still a pistol, not an AOW, attaching a plastic grip isn't a redesign
>feds drop case
There's also US v Fix, where an appeals court found the same thing, but it's an unpublished opinion and therefore doesn't set precedent.

remember when that case about suppressors was coming up and conveniently there was a shooting where a suppressor was used?
who wants to bet were getting a shooting with a full auto soon

Not full auto MG, a yankee boogled AR. Get 3DP and ARs in one swoop

>The fact that the charges were dropped is immaterial
I'm pretty sure it can be presented as evidence of prosecution prosecuting for something they know isn't valid or can't win. Not from a one-off of course, but if a trend can be established across multiple cases.
>They weren’t trying to threaten or influence or anything of the sort. Someone broke the law, got caught and got charged.
No, you're missing my point. I'm asking why the trend of refusal to follow prosecution to the end cannot be evidence that prosecution reasonably believes the law to be invalid. I'm not necessarily asking if the burden of defense would be on them, but simply if it's enough for the courts to deliberate over at all.

These are the thoughts I whack it to at night. I can only wish user, I can only wish.

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Please god

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Right, but the original statement in refers to the legal definition, and makes a claim about the ease of use. We can demarcate a relatively easy-to-use subset of MGs, but that doesn't make the assertion that all MGs (including machine-pistols) can be learned in 5 seconds any less false.

Ah, point taken and agreed.

Are you autistic, by chance? Not any of the guys in that reply chain, but you sure come off as a pedantic sperg.

Fuck I'd even take the MG registry reopening as a wank.

>MG registry reopened
>all my AKs form 1'd
>all ARs form 1'd
>anything easily converted to full auto form 1'd
>buy sten kits, etc out the ass
>can now build them for half the price too

Fap worthy material, I can only dream

>I can finally go to the range with a suit and a full auto tommy gun

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Shit I'd have to look into whether I require residency in another state or if simply owning some land and/or property would be enough.
I should probably seriously look into the pros/cons of moving to PA. Anybody know of any military bases or research/defense contractors situated in the eastern quarter of PA? It'd help jump start my research.

>i don't like what im hearing so i'll just attack his spelling mistake

Questioning competency when someone appeals to authority is a valid retort.

Holy shit!! Is that real?

>Don't you think this would risk dems being able to push for an outright AWB or new restrictions WORSE than we have now?
Nobody is gonna give up their ARs or AKs willingly

Or a lawyer...
Hm, are all lawyers autists?

Sovereign immunity.
You can't sue the government.

You can sue the prosecutor, the DA, and the lawmakers.

I've been looking to form 1 a papered dewat as a babby's first mg, and even if the registry opened, I'd save thousands if I could just buy any old dewat without having to go through a form 5 or form 4 first.

This post saddens me. Since when does correctly remembering the context of the reply chain instead of forgetting it come off as pedantic? I remember a time when we upheld a minimum standard, berating those who didn't meet it. Is everyone a phone poster with adhd nowadays?

People with autism are vastly over-represented in STEM and Law

Technically yes, but only if "the man" says it meets a criteria for individual, rather than institutional, negligence.

If I remember correctly how they originally got the NFA past the 2ed Amendment was by saying it was not gun control but just a tax.
How it is currently enforced lead to a few issues with this.
1. Owning an unregistered NFA item is really just failure to pay the tax. So, the punishment could be considered cruel/unusual for not paying a $200
2. Not allowing anyone to pay the tax makes the "its just a tax" argument hard to swallow.
Then again, law is gay and full of semantics and double talk so it doesn't have to make sense. All lawyers and politicians should be hanged.

>Don't you think this would risk dems being able to push for an outright AWB or new restrictions WORSE than we have now?
No. If the NFA falls, the Dems have to start back at square 1, with the added complication of not being able to duplicate any of the NFA provisions.

An outright ban wouldn't be a duplicate of those provisions, though.

>No. If the NFA falls, the Dems have to start back at square 1, with the added complication of not being able to duplicate any of the NFA provisions.

That's not even remotely true. The NFA was struck down by the supreme court in 1968 on account of the registration requirement was a violation of one's fifth amendment right (in order to register an NFA item you had to admit you possessed an unregistered NFA item). Congress answered by doubling down and re-writing the NFA to say that the transferor had to file the paperwork instead of the transferee (along with adding the DD category and also passing the GCA).

The NFA can only be killed when taxes themselves are killed. The Hughes amendment can only be killed when everyone who thinks the commerce clause allows the feds to regulate intra-state commerce is killed.

>So the perceived penalty is the only thing forcing people to comply?
welcome to law

you could work for giessele (gwynned manufacturing) but they're kind of a shitshow

welcome to the entire concept of government

no you misunderstand
I worked for them for like 2 months like 3 years ago and their general organization and way they conduct shop operations is not conducive for both profit and employee happiness

enjoy a poorly heated uninsulated shop (located in a 90 year old cardboard box factory) while chasing zero trying to stay in tolerance on aluminum (they want you to hold .0002 tolerance on a part that can change if you hold it for long enough from your bodyheat)
undermarket wages in exchange for a literal 'free' lunch (they have 2 fulltime cooks and a cafeteria that serves discount meat) and the chance of grocerystore giftcards (if the shop sells over the weekly quota) in a halfassed employee 'profit sharing' scheme

when I left they were trying to push knives with serial numbers to their fanboy crowd and they were looking at getting a barrel rifling machine (cheapass button rifiling iirc)

Not eastern PA, but check out PSU ARL. I have a relative there that likes it.

>not knowing that spelling is of the utmost importance in law

For real.

Fuck you, Janny. This was /k/.