Hi guys, UK EM doctor here, i made a thread last week about this time to have a real Covid discussion (and not get slided by the cvg guys)
archive.4plebs.org
This was the old thread
Theres some very interesting new information that you guys might enjoy (especially the HCQ enthusiasts)
> Theres some very interesting new information that you guys might enjoy (especially the HCQ enthusiasts)
Quick rundown?
Also thoughts on picrelated please
>archive.4plebs.org
so, i just posted in that thread.
Essentially, Yas Forums HCQ squads are somewhat correct. I will explain the ins and outs in a sec but i will give a quick sitrep on where we are and what we thought and what we now think
I see Boris's fever has broken, was he treated using H+A?
Sitrep:
Background:1
COVID is the SARS2 virus, related but not exactly the same. Im gonna assume you guys basically understand how viruses work,
the important thing to deal with in contagion is 'viral shedding'. Initially we thought that if you get 1 virion its as bad as getting 1 million (based on what sounds like BS chinese data). there is now mounting evidence that how bad you get including how fast you get tot that state is based on your initial viral load.
This might seem like common sense, but in viruses things are alot more complex.
What we thought 2:
SARS causes ARDS which is a syndrome categorised by excess water in the lungs causing VENTILATORY failure. (background: look up ventilation definition and gas exchange). ARDS causes a very specific appearance on XR and CT - use Radiopedia to look these up.
Strangely, in about 20% of patients we have been getting cardiac issues including 'mimic-STEMIs' (look up a STEMI and its ECG/EKG changes) - people were presenting with sudden onset acute cardiac syndromes that were baffling. It was initially thought this is caused by myocarditis mediated by ACE 2 receptors in the heart muscle.
HOWEVER: data is emerging from Eurobros and USA that many of the lungs and hearts in post mortem had NORMAL water but were inflamed. It looks like COVID causes a hypercoagulable state meaning your blood clots more. This was causing millions of tiny micro-clots which seem to be causing the CXR and CT pictures which look like ARDS. Further, the virus is weird: it displaces iron from your blood cells and leads to iron floating about, which causes inflammation.
I'll continue in a sec. Read up on those terms on wiki while i write it up. Also, ask questions.
way too late in disease progress for HCQ
So it's basically the: It destroys healthy red blood cells while doing two things at once: iron intoxication + weak as oxygen transport
But tell me, what can be done about this new insight? Any therapeutic ideas besides HQC?
How do zinc and vitamin c fit into this, doc?
Are you guys feeling more optimistic with these realizations and increasing use of HQC?
HCQ:
Evidence suggests that HCQ may have an effect in REDUCING DURATION of viral shedding.
Mechanism of action: It needs Zinc to work properly. Zinc (the ion Zn2++) inhibits viral RNA polymerase . Chloroquine and
hydroxychloroquine potently increase intracellular Zn concentrations - this is how it works.
This means that it MAY BE BENEFICIAL to take HCQ *ALONG WITH* supplementing Zinc.
Our ICU collegues in the south of europe and the USA and Saudi Arabia (MERS central!) have made recommendations for treatment for different stages: prophylaxis, mild disease and severe disease.
On Yas Forums, prophylaxis is probably most relevent so ill start with that.
So I have a platelet storage pool deficiency. Does this mean coronachan will fix my cloting issue?
thanks for the information, the hemoglobin stuff is just very strange...
Have you measured the Vitamin D levels in patients? (Mild vs serious vs critical)
What's the prevalence of comorbidities such as related in mild cases?
come talk to britpol you'll get a bigger audience there
send a link, or link them to this thread?
>An NHS doctor posting on an obscure Eritrean bongo playing forum
Sure, the same board where everyone is a skilled welder making $200k. How could anyone doubt this
full version of that thread, you can zoom in to read, it talks about the iron issue with theories on why, Doctor please read this
Are there multiple strains?
Yas Forums is always desperate to have that sense of "insider information", even if they have to fake it.
...
What does Vitamin D have to do with this?
I was prescribed Vitamin D by my doctor but I never took it regularly.
Am I fucked?
Just getting to VitD
Firstly though its important to STRESS that there is NO HIGH LEVEL evidence to suggest any of these definitely work. But they are cheap, safe and widely available so there may be no harm done in taking supplements.
Vitamin D: Low vitamin D levels have been shown to increase the risk of developing viral upper respiratory tract infections. Most of the western population is deficient.
Its absolutely recommended that you supplement this in your diet.
Theres another important addition to the cocktail. (cheap copy/paste from our crit care group chat)
Quercetin is a plant phytochemical. Experimental and early clinical data suggests that this compound has broad antiviral properties (including against coronavirus) and acting at various steps in the viral life cycle. Quercetin is a potent inhibitor of heat shock proteins (HSP 40 and 70) which are required for viral assembly. This readily available and cheap plant-derived compound may play a role in the prophylaxis of COVID-19 in high risk populations.
Read it, this guy might be on their crit care team at his local hospital - what hes saying is correct and basically the same.
So basically attempted murder by not giving it to him at first positive diagnosis
>Our ICU collegues in the south of europe and the USA and Saudi Arabia (MERS central!) have made recommendations for treatment for different stages: prophylaxis, mild disease and severe disease
Are they thinking this also happened with SARS-Cov-1 and MERS-Cov and just wasn’t discovered?
inaction isn't attempted murder. If you let someone bleed out, that isn't attempted murder.
>Quercetin
wow I started taking this because it is a zinc ionosphore just like Hydroxychloroquine, but ddint know about the other actions
No, the evidence is still weak. Also, not everyone is suitable for it as it can cause QTc elongation: especially people who used to do lots of cocaine. It can cause torsades de pointes and other arrhythmias so a medic has to check your ECG before approving.
you're probably fine
they're wondering about vitamin D because in the US it's killing black people at a far higher rate than whites
black people have higher rates of vitamin D deficiency
in Europe especially as their bodies are designed to live in hot sunny climates, and europe isn't that
I dont care what the (((courts))) say. They deliberately withheld information.
So he was told to do nothing?
what the fuck is that bizarre cult-like fetish for "the NHS" in bongland?
>the important thing to deal with in contagion is 'viral shedding'. Initially we thought that if you get 1 virion its as bad as getting 1 million (based on what sounds like BS chinese data). there is now mounting evidence that how bad you get including how fast you get tot that state is based on your initial viral load.
No serious virologist would ever claim 1 virion being equal to a dose of millions of virions. It obviously does make a difference with how many infected cells you start. It’s not as significant as with bacteria, but it does make a difference. Route of transmission is more important in viruses and it’s long been suspected with SARS-Cov-1 and MERS-Cov the deeper it starts in your respiratory system the stronger the pathogenic effect and the lower the transmissibility. Infection fatality rate in other words is negatively correlated to R0.
>bizarre cult-like fetish
Flies an ancap flag
Kek
I'm not in his medical team so I cant comment, sorry.
Its the state religion along with poppies
Was being facetious, but the viral load theory wasnt widely accepted for a very long time.
fuck off pajeet, go shit in a street. Honestly what the fuck are doctors even doing with all their 'muh front line' nonsense. theres no cure, no vaccine, nothing. Youre just giving people oxygen and Tylenol. or sticking the lucky few in ventilators. the hospital janitor could do your job at this point you useless cunt
that's "are ennaychess" to you mister
Do you feel you're being properly protected and if this had a higher fatality rate, like 10%, do you think the NHS would have been able to deal with it
wrong on literally every count but ok you do you
WILL BOJO BE OK???
WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE HERD?
Our PPE in london is pretty good, i feel safe.
Mortality rate isnt the issue at all, its the huge strain on crit care and elderly care. in fact a lower mortality rate but higher morbidity would be way worse
lupus doctors prescribe Hydroxychloroquine by the hundreds of thousands and they dont check EKG or have a strict approval protocol
They have confirmed evidence of its use - but they will definitely make sure you dont have a conduction irregularity at 6 months ish
Presumably, a doctor would also try various drugs to treat symptoms to see if anything helped. Knowing which drugs to try would require a lot more knowledge than the typical janitor would have.
If OP is LARPing, he's doing a good job at it.
I take an iron supplement because idk. Should I stop?
can you tell us what area roughly you are based in doc? you can say london, swansea, cardiff etc.
have you found the clapping to be of any help there?
based on what you've just said there how would you consider mr johnsons condition based on theory and what they are saying in the press?
how are the hospitals doing there? is it totally fucking rammed or okay?
how many people can you see dying of this doctor?
when can you see this calming down?
have you noticed any races particularly getting hit the worst?
wait so are you then advocating for high dose IV vitamin c use for the lung condition? I think you should there enough evidence already and the treatment is viable for last and most critical stage of the disease, ARDS
yes I figured such, I do remember that now, but whats great is they say no issues after 60 and 90 days of use as it is common and treatment for Covid is only weeks or one full month
Is it advisable to consume zinc daily? Does it have any adverse effect? What do you think of India using HDQ as a prophylactic for health personnel.
just saw some twitter ER doc sees no COVID-19 patients above 30ng/m.
also
vitamindwiki.com
vitamindwiki.com
picture has the study link, its crazy that Australia has an official disapproval of Vitamin c for ARDS in respect to covid-19 and they say there's no evidence or studies and they cite their sources, how have they not seen this study wtf, the incompetence and status qua
VitD:
Does this explain why it seems to be killing more niggers?
>but the viral load theory wasnt widely accepted for a very long time
Do you mean for SARS-Cov-2? Because in other viruses this has been known for a very long time e.g. chickenpox in humans. Viruses where almost only the route of transmission and less the initial virion load is relevant are usually the types with extrem broad tissue tropism. Ebola comes to mind.
white skin/lack of melanin is a genetic evolutionary adaptation to absorb more vitamin d
Yes, stop it if you arent anaemic
London
- haha clapping i thought is a literal meme of americans, we all find it very cringe at work but the bants are good , we clap for each other doing menial tasks and say thx 4 your service
- BoJo will be fine, he's been moved to ICU early because hes the PM and is the best candidate for escalation there is
- Hospitals are rammed resp- wise but other cases gone down. The main people coming in are very sick non covids, pancreatitis coz theyre all drinking like mad, and covids in distress
- We have about 20-40 a day admitted as end of life patients, probably a good 6-700 a day for a few more days at least
- Depending on people stopping pissing about, hopefully itll be over May-ish
- Yes, Asians and those with multi generational families in the same home are getting battered. Also ?caused by low vitamin D in brown and black people caused by british lack of sun.
VitC 500mg BD seems decent
Yes, we all thought it was common sense but public health england didnt jump on board for a while.
Why the fuck are people accepting the literal state of the NHS? In civilised countries, if you go to the doctor with a bowel issue, he actually has an ultrasound machine in his practice and he scans you right then and there. But here, I need to first see a gp (takes days for the appointment), he has fuck all equipment in his room, he says I need a scan so he sends me to the hospital for one, I have to wait 4 fucking weeks for a basic ultrasound and when I do get it, its done by a special "ultrasound team" and not by my doctor so I cant ask questions related yo my condition because they dont know shit, then I have to wait another 4 weeks for the results which they send BY LETTER, I mean jesus christ. I had to pick my jaw off the desk when I read that the maximum wait time mandated by the goverment is 18 fucking weeks and if you get a consultation in less time than that then thats "acceptable", I mean what the fuck is going on? Its surreal how bad it is here.
Good luck god speed cornachan I hope the world shit kicking tour 2020 continues desu.
So basically... shit's not fucked, breh?
Can you tell me what is uniquely strange or "interesting" about this virus please in your own words
Clever establishment marketing to make people feel like a government institution is what makes their nation admirable to the rest of the world. A similar thing could be said of London's red buses and phoneboxes.
Note how the obsession is always over 'NHS staff' rather than medical professionals, as if those working in private institutions are somehow less commendable in saving lives
I know. The NHS is underfunded and stretched and all this fake sympathy pisses me off.
holy fuck you are a typical pharma jew MD doctor, you dont even care about vitamin C, I said HIGH DOSE intravenous like what China and South Korea among others are doing,
thank you for answering my questions. so it starting to peter out then from what you can see?
Quinine from tonic water its low levels obviously but drinking fair amounts of it through the day would that have any positive effect? A long shot but I also heard real absinthe could be of use to with thujone worm wood and quinine.
Awhile back in Feb a family of 6 in china all infected with in 1-2 days and chinese news claimed all 6 had different strains. That news article has been covered up now do you believe there is any truth to it? And one of the leading experts I think who is now dead claimed a vaccine would take 18 months to reach clinical trials if they ever created one. That vaccine would only be good for 1 strain for 3 weeks due to how fast covid mutates. If thats true we are fucked. Please share your thoughts on any of what I said and update us here with real news my government has done nothing but lie back pedal and then go back on things its said already.
Hopefully not, today we started anticoagulating and giving HCQ etc to the admissions, we will see how it goes.
Im finding the way it presents amazing, Lungs, heart, even brain now too - we had a patient with Covid encephalitis. Weird as fuck incubation period and seems to absolutely devastate people in ICU. Ive never seen such shitty ICU outcomes, and our ICM guys, usually the calmest, coolest guys on the block, have visible nervousness, almost panic , these days.
Its also pretty cool to see all your epidemiology, biochem, physiology etc and modern research coming into place right in front of your eyes.
now a HIGH DOSE IV VITAMIN C REDPILL THREAD
its too a low a dose and high does is dangerous that shit is dangerous as fuck
If the virus causes inflammation why would encephalitis be weird?
My personal favorites against SARS-Cov-2 are metabolic products of allium sativum and icosapentaenoic acid. Both because of their rather significant immun modulating effects. Immun modulation is exactly, what you want in a severe infection, since what’s usually ends up being fatal especially in viral infections isn’t tissue damage caused by the virus or it’s toxic proteins, but a cascade of immun defense being stuck in a positive feed back loop, in which ends up destroying too much tissue. In the case of acute infection, we should look at interferons, especially INTbeta1a/b.
There are supposedly 2 main strains in the UK, but natural course of time would lead to individual strains emerging in different areas. Thats just evolution.
As for quinine, again, no evidence, and tonic water is an 'old aunt's tale' - but it probably is too low a dose, and quinine has a narrow therapeutic window and is dangerous if you go too high.
I dont know if its petering out, but it seems fairly steady and we arent drowning yet.
fuck off man. High dose IV vit C i've never even seen in hospital, i doubt we'd start it yet
Some user posted about epogen being used by the rich and privileged to cure this..plausible?
But isnt the issue more related to the very foundation of how the NHS is built? They get their money for salaries, equipment etc from taxpayers, given to them by the government. So naturally, they always want to save as much of it as possible. And this is reflected in almost every level of their service. Emphasis on "self care", (even though people arent doctors and cant diagnose themselves properly), initial approaches of "see what happens I guess", and then when they realize they need to do (in their perspective) a "serious " test like a basic ultrasound, they do it almost begrudgingly because its expensive and they dont want to. In Germany, all of it is done privately and the system is 1000% more effective and I dont think its just to do with money. There the doctors get paid more by your insurance for doing expensive tests so things go very quickly. In a sense the pressure is not on the healthcare system but the insurance companies, but they cant easily fuck you at all.
People supporting the NHS is such extreme stockholm syndrome, they just havent experienced anything else