Goes out of her way to make everyone in the world happy even at the cost of her own happiness

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correct. Homura is just in love with her own despair.

just because she wanted to be happy doesn't mean she was. that's the tragedy of Homura.

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Villains can have good intentions, Kyubey technically is trying to save the universe from entropy but you wouldn't call the actions of the incubators GOOD either. Homura's decision makes her the bad guy because she ultimately put the universe in a state of uncertain turmoil and put herself in a position where she'll inevitably have to fight and die to the other megucas, it's an entirely selfish decision made by Homura and she's fully aware of that fact. She knows Madoka's in pain but would still make the same choices all over again if she could and decided to become the "devil", the villain so Madoka could have as much time as possible to be a normal girl again because it's her own stubborn rebellion against the state of things. Homura would be the first to call herself the bad guy because she knows well enough that everything she did was wholly for her own satisfaction, so she could see Madoka happy and "saved" even if it means one day being defeated by her in the name of restoring the status quo Madoka herself created.
A lot of people claim that to consider Homura wrong is to not understand the movie, but it's rather the opposite situation as only someone who truly understands Homura's mindset and the reasons behind the actions she takes would find them wrong for the same reasons Homura herself does. This was a wholly selfish wish made by Homura, who refused to accept a reality where she failed to save Madoka and as a result, Madoka could never see her loved ones again and didn't even exist to them anymore, that's why it's her Rebellion, the last futile kicking and screamings of Homura Akemi who'd give up everything if just to give Madoka one more day where she didn't have to be a goddess anymore.

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then explain what evil deeds she committed

>destroys the Law of Cycles
>desecrates Madoka's wish
>brainwashes her friends
>tortures Kyuubey

>tortures Kyuubey
They deserve it desu

Yeah, now explain what evil deeds she committed

Sayaka is trash and Kyouko should be shipperfagged with Mami instead of this retarded moralfag straight bitch.

>witches are still gone
>Madoka's wish wasn't to disappear from all existence
>Madoka also brainwashed them
>he deserved it

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She was the only one unhappy. Others were dead without being witches thanks to Madoka's selfless wish.
Goes against her waifu's wish to change everything because she's mad she can't munch pink box.
She basically couldn't handle a break up and fucks everything up because of it.

this is so moronic it hurts

people are retards
you're supposed to look at this final scene and not listen
sayaka is yelling about how evil she is while Nagisa had her fate of dying changed and is playing in a puddle

Saving the universe from heat death is not a crime

>another retard who doesn't know what heat death is

Oh yeah, then what is it

Your basically saying that Homuras actions are bad because she goes against Madokas wishes for her own selfish reasons, but I can't see that as being bad without also having to paint Madokas wish in that same light. Homuras decides she wants everyone (but really just Madoka) to be happy at her expense, without consulting anyone else, but this is exactly what Madoka does with her wish.
We consider QBs actions bad because of the manipulation of others, and the sadness they bring, because of their results and not because of their intentions. Both Madokas and Homuras intentions as well as results are good, the only difference is Homura openly does it for self satisfaction. I would even argue that Madoka does this too whether or not she realized it.

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>explain this
Christcucks hear the word "devil" and their brains shut down. See

>sadness is bad
The meguca universe is fueled by edge.

Same reason as why people are fighting in Matrix: Choice.
It's pretty much the same, it's not a bad situation, the only debatable thing is that you have no choice in being part of it or not, remember that at the end of the trilogy, the Matrix still exists, you just have the choice to be part of it or not.

>saving the universe from something that won't happen before Earth becomes lifeless is not a crime
It's pretty futile anyway.

Homura decides her edge should be the fuel instead of everyone's or Madoka's

Homura's actions are bad because she threw a spanner into everything for the sake of her own self-satisfaction and she's well aware of that fact. She has no plan and she knows one day she's going to get killed off for doing this but she did it knowing the consequences. Whenever I try to argue this though people like to go "WELL WE DON'T /KNOW/ THE UNIVERSE DOESN'T HAVE A LAW OF CYCLES ANYMORE FOR ALL WE KNOW HOMURA MADE HER OWN" because there was no follow-up as of yet but it's pretty heavily fucking implied that what she did broke the natural order that Madoka created to try and make it so the magical girls who turn into witches at the very least don't have to hurt anymore after the QBs got the energy they wanted. The fact that Homura makes herself out as a devil, the way Sayaka expresses the severity of what Homura did, these things are because the law of cycles is clearly broken because Homura didn't care what happened to the universe, all that matters to her is Madoka, not the universe, not the world, not even herself. Homura's a tragic heroine and she certainly didn't find a solution to everything with this decision because it was never about making a way to maintain the universe without Madoka being involved, it was about saving Madoka and those are two very different things even if they don't sound like it.

Honestly, a lot of these arguments come off as Homura vs Madoka in terms of Homura's decisions, Homura'd be more likely to consider what she did wrong while Madoka would try to defend her because her heart was in the right place and it kind of makes me realize why these arguments happen. You either think within the perspective of Homura herself or you think within Madoka's theoretical perspective of matters, either way all the debates and fighting in the world won't really matter until a follow-up comes along to either confirm or deconfirm the arguments being made.

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>please believe my headcanon pleaseee

That's what she thinks, not what actually happens, it's part of her self-deprecation and unga of Madoka's cave bunga

>200970649
Not even worth a (You), you clearly don't even understand shit about what happened nor the character you're bending over backwards to defend if your only retort to everything I said is "hurr that's clearly headcanon unlike my headcanon which is true!"

Based

>I can base my interpretation on literally nothing but nobody else can
Nice argument retard.

Why are you projecting? It's fine if you don't understand what happened or the characters you're talking about but you shouldn't make it anyone else's problem.

>things have to be bad even though we weren't shown anything bad
>but things can't be good even though we weren't shown anything bad
You don't make any sense and your arguments are based on nothing.

ALL these fucking arguments are based on nothing. We have nothing to go off of except for what happened and the characters in question and how they might've acted. That's my fucking end point, that none of this shit matters because it's just throwing headcanon at headcanon and acting like one's more true than the other but I still argue about it because to defend Homura to the death is flat out insulting to her character and the fact that her entire fucking existence since she made her first wish has been an endless tragedy.
You think suddenly she created a magical happy fucking ending where nothing's bad ever because Rebellion ended on a note that clearly begets a goddamn follow-up despite everything leading up to it and then you have the gall to tell ME I'm making shit up because my observations are based on more than surface level "Cheese girl is happy while Sayaka is mad therefore it's a happy ending!" bullshit?
You know what? It was a fucking mistake thinking I could get an actual goddamn debate after that 2B poster actually made a post that was more than just "hurr you're wrong becuase I say so" because there's an ocean of mouthbreathers who can't speculate worth a damn and so you argue the same baseless shit every time and when you can't even try to do that you fucking claim my shit's baseless like the hypocrites you are. How can so many fans of a character not even understand the character they're defending, holy shit.

Your post assumes the same amount as the people you're speaking of. It looked to me that the reason her actions were so severe is because of how unstable her little farce is and the prospect of having the universe dancing on her puppet strings with no one else having a choice in the matter. That alone makes the situations severe enough to warrant those negative connotations that the characters give it. There's no reason to believe that the witch cycle is back on in this new order. There's equal reason to believe that things are still working as before with Homura holding all of it together like wet cement. At the very least it's absolutely not "clear" at all.
You're right that Homura wasn't concerned with the universe, but she had to take complete control over it to enact her plan, so that doesn't mean she let things go to shit either. I will say that her torturing Kyubey like that could imply that she didn't, but that's also a stretch considering how many other reasons there are for her to hate them. It's a huge unknown, and given what is known so far, there's no reason to believe she's done any real harm outside of the perspective of Madoka and Sayaka.
And even if your case is correct, that means that things will go back to Madoka's order once she is defeated taking us right back to a good system with no known consequences.

Thank you finally someone with an argument.
As far as I know unless Homura sent out the incubators to create more magical girls, there wouldn't really be anything creating the energy needed to hold entropy back and while we can assume one way or the other Homura's malice towards them alone may just have her imprisoning them for torment in the name of her personal catharsis and also the potential of one of them finding a way to get some kind of connection that ties to Madoka, which is unlikely but more absurd things have happened. I still feel like the cycle is broken simply because from a narrative standpoint this situation feels like the climax of Homura's story, it was never going to end happily (unless Madoka pulls a Rebellion of her own in whatever follow up might occur which could happen just considering the type of person Madoka is), the other shoe's gotta drop eventually and Homura set herself up as the villain partially because she wants to try and make herself a more detestable target to try and make Madoka not hesitate when the day comes that they have to fight. Again, it's hard to really do more than speculate but I feel like Homura breaking everything for Madoka's sake is more in-character and more likely for her story arc than her actions making everything better than they were.

I'm the 2B poster. I think we're having a pretty interesting discussion right now and you've brought up good points, you can just ignore the mouthbreathers. It happens everytime until you get pretty deep in these threads.
I don't think this being a happy ending insults her character, this seems to be a climax to a huge arc of Homus character and one that she obviously can't keep up forever. There is plenty of tragedy in line with her character in the fact that the only happiness she was ever able to carve for herself is hollow and temporary, so much so that the people she saved will hate her for it, and comes at the expense of her actual goals and happiness

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>Thank you finally someone with an argument.
Not that guy, but this post And this post Are saying the same thing: you attack other's posts for being headcanon while at the same time asserting that things must be how you headcanoned them. Which is a worthless argument.

Honestly I appreciate at the very least that you agree with me that all of this is temporary. That's always been my main thing when this topic comes up, that all of this is hollow and temporary, however I still find that her actions will have much more severe consequences on a grand scale, as that'll be the driving force to have the megucas come back together and try to put an end to Homura so Madoka can regain her power and fix everything. I mentioned it in the post above too. It's techincally a "happy ending" for right now but I doubt it has no major caveats both because of how I figure Homura's arc will go and because of the type of story Madoka Magica is.

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" - Literally explained why Homura is wrong in a single sentence. And yes, brainwashing people IS a type of liberty violation if it's done against their will.

Akuma let Mami and Nagisa be together and that makes her a hero in my books.

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>Whenever I try to argue this though people like to go "WELL WE DON'T /KNOW/ THE UNIVERSE DOESN'T HAVE A LAW OF CYCLES ANYMORE FOR ALL WE KNOW HOMURA MADE HER OWN"
We do know. Homura said she only took out the part that contained Madoka's personality. Even Sayaka confirmed that only a part of it was changed. This is further confirmed by Nagisa not being a Witch.
>As far as I know unless Homura sent out the incubators to create more magical girls, there wouldn't really be anything creating the energy needed to hold entropy back
I see you're yet another person who doesn't understand what the fuck heat death is. The point of Kyubey's little speech in the show wasn't to paint him as any kind of necessary evil, it was to do the exact opposite. Heat death is so farfetched of a concern that humanity will never, ever have to deal with it, so sacrificing little girls to delay it doesn't contribute anything to humanity in the slightest.

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Not really, at most I mentioned a very common defense used against my arguments and then brought up that there's implications that go against it. I then brought up an observation I made about these arguments in general and how they somewhat reflect the mindsets of Homura and Madoka. I brought up the defense mainly to tear it down because I'm used to people using it as a catch-all get out. I'm aware I'm working off speculation, but all of us are until more material comes out that follows up on things but I've noticed a decent amount of people. The only other time I really brought that type of stuff up was in my first post because someone had claimed that not defending Homura meant you didn't understand the movie which I stated as wrong because to really understand Homura's situation would be to at the very least understand that her actions were not exactly good even if everything seems ok at the current moment of the movie's end which in itself was almost definitely meant to be a cliffhanger and to understand Homura herself knows fully well how selfish her actions are even if it's for the sake of Madoka. I never once insulted someone for using headcanon but I used some headcanon statements to counter tired arguments I've gotten before.

>Again, it's hard to really do more than speculate but I feel like Homura breaking everything for Madoka's sake is more in-character and more likely for her story arc than her actions making everything better than they were.
Homura has no interest in breaking the Law of Cycles because that disrespects Madoka by proxy, Madoka finds the Cycle valuable therefore it has value. Homura also demonstrably goes out of her way to give magical girls who aren't Madoka a happy ending (see: the end montage of Rebellion), which runs counter to the idea that she broke the Law of Cycles and thus fucked over everyone who's currently residing in it.
The point of Rebellion isn't "oh geez Homura ruined everything we need to stop her because the universe is about to fall to pieces lol." It's a much smaller conflict than that. The point is: "is it morally acceptable for Homura to forcibly take Madoka out of the law of Cycles?" Inserting a plot device of immediate doom cheapens this conflict by giving one side an automatic boost in legitimacy. Homura's world isn't perfect and we don't know everything about how it works, but spinning the ending as being the universe is somehow objectively fucked over takes away from the point of the movie.
And by "objectively fucked over" I mean "fucked over in a timescale that's relevant to Earth" since heat death won't set in for another 10^50 years and thus is irrelevant.

We're also basing the heat death thing off the implied logic that it's akin to our real world scenario. In this show entropy is treated as a force being held back by the energy the incubators are gathering and considering all the various side materials and such they've been doing it for a long ass time, we don't know what happens if the law of cycle were to be stopped and for all we know the particular situation the incubators wanted to prevent is far faster than the real life scenario. It's hard to really say one way or the other until we have more to chew on that things would work as they would in our world.

I brought up the heat death thing in but as for why characters like Nagisa aren't a witch that can be because Homura made it so the incubators never started making magical girls by imprisoning them, therefore it only makes sense that Nagisa would be a normal girl. As for the morally acceptable aspect, that's a matter of perspective and why it made me think of Homura and Madoka and the way they think kind of reflects how people act in regards to this conflict. I never said the point of Rebellion was that Homura breaks everything either, and I probably will still find it suspiciously too clean to think that everything worked out especially considering the series in question we're discussing. But regardless, one day hopefully we'll find out which side was right in this eternal debate, maybe they'll toss some Magia Record money into wrapping up Homura's character arc eventually.

Again you don't understand just how vast the universe's timeline is. Humans and all life in general are just a tiny little speck at the back of it all. If heat death truly "needed" to be delayed, as in if it actually would have happened before humanity came to its end naturally, it would have happened long before humanity came to be in the first place, or still long after all the same. Moreover we see both Madoka's and Homura's worlds make it to the equivalent of our modern day without any issue, which is yet more evidence pointing towards Kyubey's methods being completely unnecessary.

Again, you're applying real world logic to a fantasy situation. On top of that, the magical girl thing was stated to just be the most efficient means that the Incubators found to generate energy, which means they most likely have been trying various other methods before humanity came around. There's still a lot of uncertainty in regards to this situation because this isn't our world and we don't know all the rules of how things are to a perfect T, hell we don't even know all the rules of how our own world works.

>I probably will still find it suspiciously too clean to think that everything worked out
Everything "worked out" in the sense that none of Homura's changes produced an immediately detrimental effect on the lives of magical girls or the characters in the series. It didn't "work out" because Homura herself, mentally unstable Homura, is now the sole overseer of all creation and she had to take this power by force.

I'm assuming that entropy works the same way as it does in the real world just like I'm assuming that gravity works the same way as it does in the real world unless stated otherwise. Just because a setting has fantastical elements does not give you a pass to assume literally anything as a possibility. That results in a completely pointless discussion.

Immediately is still the keyword there for me. This isn't an ending that was meant to act as the finale, so it's almost certainly inevitable whatever consequences her actions caused will ultimately tie into the conflicts of whatever comes to follow-up Rebellion. It's just kind of a shame we won't get a follow-up probably for quite some time.

cute couple..

>she distances herself from Madoka
?

why

Gravity doesn't tie into any of the plot elements, entropy does, I feel that's a bit of a difference that makes it valid to consider entropy possibly working differently. I feel thinking of things within a bit of a meta context helps when it comes to these speculative discussions and I do feel for the sake of plot that entropy will probably be a different force than it is in our world if/when we get the endcap to the series.

where's Mami's bulge?

The hidden Yas Forums discord link is discord gg hn2vxyx

It has to stay hidden or (((discord))) will shut it down
...

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Sure, eventually she'll need to be stopped, but I didn't realize until this conversation that when she is eventually stopped Madoka's order will be back in place. Doesn't that mean that everything will be good again as soon as Homura's happiness ends? That's actually sad as hell to type out

i don't understand any of this and haven't watched madoka can someone simplify it into a trolley dilemma

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If the writer wanted to give off the impression of necessity from Kyubey's deeds then he wouldn't have used a real life idea like heat death EXACTLY because it's known to be farfetched as hell. If the intention of the writer was to redefine heat death and make it a more immediate threat then he would have clarified that, but alternatively (and far more likely) he would have not used the concept at all and instead made up a brand new apocalyptic event that would have occurred on a much more comprehensible and relevant timeline.

It is sad, but Homura's story is sad. At the very least Madoka may be able to give her the happy ending she worked so hard for, after all that works into how Madoka is.

>if you don't pull the lever millions of little girls will die
>if you pull the lever none of the little girls will die

>>goes out of her way to make everyone in the world happy even at the cost of her own happiness
magical girl site unironically did this better

Pic unrelated,right?