If you work, and your labor produces a certain amount of value, do you not believe yourself entitled to that value? Do you not find it wrong that your labor produces a “surplus value” that you do not get? Do you think it’s OK that there is a capitalist class that thrives on the backs of the workingman? Sucking out all the value of his labor creates and leaving him little? If you think this is OK, then you just might be a cuck.
>Spend all day working in a factory >Your labor produces $1,000 >You get 200 >The capitalist gets 800 >That 800 is surplus value
The answer is simple. Remove the middleman and the worker will receive the full produce of the fruits of his labor.
You do not need authoritarian socialism to do this.
Syndicalism is the answer. Remove the capitalist class and let the workers own the means of production directly. Eliminating most surplus value, so that every worker gets his labor value returned to him.
Ian Hughes
One is based on a contract you have with another agency. Did you agree to work for $10 an hour even though you're worth $20? Your fault.
The other is based on the military force because the governors and senators need to make a paycheck.
Joshua Phillips
>Labor is entitled to all it creates no risk and reward always goes hand in hand if reward would exceed the proportional risk then the market would remove this inefficiency by flooding into that opportunity.
the capitalist risks his capital on his venture, his money, the laborer only risks a tiny amount of his time. rewards are proportional.
Luke Cooper
your work is worth whatever you're willing to accept as wages
say if I buy something from your, am I stealing from you when I sell it at a higher price? are you entitled to the difference between prices?
Sebastian Powell
also nothing stops workers to be shareholders and share the risk and burden of running the corporation as well as the rewards.... nothing.
Jason Carter
People are reading No More Hunger by William Dudley Pelley.
Joseph Diaz
>You accepted the wages goy >Did you agree to work for $10 an hour even though you're worth $20? Your fault. It doesn’t matter what you agree to. The capitalist class literally cannot exist without exploiting surplus value. You will not find a job if you do not agree to this basic law of economic capitalism.
Stop thinking about this as if we have to work within the capitalist system. The class that creates these contracts does not have to exist.
Joseph Martinez
>let the workers own the means of production directly this has been tried and been a spectacular failure.
Anthony Gomez
>MUH risk and reward YES, right now, the capitalist does take this risk. But if the capitalist class was liquidated and all the means of production were owned by the workers, then that risk would just fall upon the workers instead. And it would be their price for removing surplus value.
This changes nothing.
Wyatt Rodriguez
and today of course Mondragon is the powerhouse of the world economy
James Miller
>surplus value this shit is the most retarded thing ever. whoever made this up never tried investing his money.
Isaac Ross
In 2020, I can buy stock and real estate from my phone. Capitalism has been mostly democratized via technology such that anyone who labors can participate. The Marxist argument only applies to the indigent and lame who shitpost about ableism on Reddit.
Gabriel Bell
they can do that as it is. nothing is stopping a bunch of workers to stat their own corporation and be their own investors.
Lincoln Cruz
Where's the colour for risk taken?
Bentley Flores
>Remove the capitalist class and let the workers own the means of production directly.
This begs the question. Why can't workers band together to form their own business? By doing that they would be owning the means of production directly.
Charles Hill
>You do not need authoritarian socialism to do this based retard. all non-capitalist anarchists are my friends because their systems, without a central authority to control it, will naturally evolve into a free market ancap system
"Surplus value" isn't surplus - it's a product of the capital invested in the factory.
A lumberjack who works all day can cut down one tree with his bare hands, ten trees with an axe, and a hundred trees with a chainsaw. What is the value of his labor? What is the value of a chainsaw?
James Peterson
>you can get more wealth by making it impossible to own wealth
socialists are the dumbest people in existence, they are begging to be made slaves
Wyatt Lewis
>It doesn’t matter what you agree to It matters to me what I agree to very much. I did not agree to pay fucking tax
Hudson Turner
A better and more fitting question in the era of the “gig” economy is what if every worker was no longer a worker but an independent contractor? A corporate, capitalist entity unto themselves!
Lincoln Bailey
Bullshit. Without the capital invested and the risk taken by the capitalist, you would produce any value at all, because all the input except labor was provided by him. If you don't provide the whole of the input, why would get the whole of the output?
>implying my income is just in salary Lmfao. It’s called investments you fucking retard.
Samuel Perry
Yes, but I want it on a national level.
They can, and it has been done. I want it to be the norm.
>all non-capitalist anarchists are my friends because their systems, without a central authority to control it, naturally evolve into a free market ancap system
Well first of all, I’m not an anarchist. But since you are, please explain: Private ownership of businesses cannot be ensured without a state to protect the capitalists property. This is why ancaps love Pinochet so much. Please explain how without a state, a warlord won’t just prop up and start fucking with you and collecting taxes. That’s what happens in Somalia.
Jaxon Lee
Risk taking and leadership have to be rewarded or no one would do it. Fundamentally built into human psychology
Logan Peterson
1. Who built the factory? 1A. Who got the land upon which the factory is built? 2. Who got the materials to make the factory? 3. Who got the raw materials to make the products at the factory? 4. Who is responsible for selling the products made at the factory?
>The capitalist class literally cannot exist without exploiting surplus value. You aren't smart enough to make the office or factory that you work in, you wouldn't be earning jack shit without mr piggy above you.
Cooper Cook
>businesses cannot be ensured without a state to protect the capitalists property. Guns. Private security
Grayson Watson
Because you see, a state is nothing more than whichever group has a monopoly on violence. And whoever has that monopoly is going to collect taxes to further fund their interests. Violence is just another business. Using this basic law, it could even be one of your capitalist enterprises that grows itself into a state.
Jack Perry
bait thread
Jaxson Brooks
All of that could be done by the workers.
Joshua Gray
You don't have to remove the capitalist class, you can literally go and start a coop with your worker friends, no one stops you from doing that, and there are a lot of coops in existence within capitalist systems. The problem with coops is that it requires all worker to vote and be actively involved in the decision making. They're a nightmare to run and extremely inefficient. To add up to that, most workers just want to do their work, get a salary and go home. They don't want to have to spend extra hours going on meetings and participate in extra shit necessary to keep a company afloat
Tyler Thompson
based
Ayden Morales
Literally nobody is stopping them from doing so retard
Kayden White
could it though? you think every worker or a collective of workers has the ability to run things efficiently? especially when there is very little benefit (can’t own shit) in doing so? planned economies, like you, are spectacular failures.
Samuel Sanchez
>I want it on a national level in an efficient market the only way you can have middle men that don't add value and can't be cut out is by state mandate as in mandate of violence.
the only way to have middle men that don't add value is your way.
Easton Hernandez
>muh planned economy It sounds like you don’t know what that means, because this would be a market economy.
>the only way to have middle men that don't add value is your way. Yes. By the workers, for the workers.
Landon Sullivan
monopolies are prevented by an intelligent population that simply chooses not to give business to any entity that is threatening to become a scary monopoly boogeyman. without a state, large companies cannot rig the game in their favor, so from there the free market competition will tear them apart
James Watson
>Raytheon moves into your neighborhood Hope you bought the premium security package
Cameron King
yeh no doubt. but you know what OP, I can't be fucked having to deal with all the surplus value I create. I cbf having to turn it into fiat, i cbf having to navigate any of that shit. I enjoy getting my wage on and getting paid and giving some to the govt so I got water and electricity and health care and my shit goes the fuck away from me when I flush. And i have not a care in the world.
Xavier Taylor
A state is just a monopoly on violence. Do I need to spell it out for you? They will be forced to buy from that monopoly, because they send armed guards outside of other peoples businesses to prevent customers from going in.
This is what will happen in an anarcho-capitalist world. Something, WILL eventually get a monopoly on violence. And when that happens, it’s basically a state.
Aaron Howard
>monopolies are prevented by an intelligent population that simply chooses not to give business to any entity that is threatening to become a scary monopoly boogeyman Good thing nobody buys from China
William Barnes
What about labour created by previous generations? The effort out by others before us that has been building up by thousands of years. The tools used by your ancestors to create the tools we have today. Who gets the the profit of that labour?
>people, like, won't take over your property dude >christ, haven't you heard of the NAP???
Bentley Bennett
Honestly we just need to return to the gold standard and tell the jews to fuck off
Sebastian Wilson
>By the workers, for the workers also consider this... if the workers own the means of production and partake rewards in proportion to their work how that would look for a new employee?
>be fresh out of high school >try to take a job at commiecopr >they say you can't work there unless you buy at least 15 shares of the company >you don't get salary, you get dividends of profit if there is any in tough years you work for free >15 shares is $500k on the market because nobody is really looking to sell his share right now
fucking hilarious...
Brandon Wood
We tried this before and it didn't end well. Back to r/leftypol
Wyatt Gonzalez
>A state is just a monopoly on violence No shit. Monopolies can only be prevented by a culture that embraces nap. Your shit idea comes with a monopoly build in from the start
Leo Hughes
>they say you can't work there unless you buy at least 15 shares of the company >buy You're braindead
Blake Morgan
All capitalist businesses are built upon the exploitation of surplus value. It is not legitimate just because it was formed by generations. Generational wealth had to come from somewhere. I make no differentiation from the grocery store down the street and giant corporations like Walmart.
They will be redistributed into the hands of the workers to form a collective.
>I will pay guards and private security to protect my property instead of using a state ....if you’re able to buy people with guns to protect your property, what’s stopping you from buying people with guns to attack other peoples property?
Anarcho-Capitalism is a hypocritical mess.
Zachary Watson
>Monopolies can only be prevented by a culture that embraces nap. Is this culture just going to fall out of the fucking sky!?!? You’re no better than a hippy claiming everybody can just get along maaaann.
Jaxson Campbell
>if you’re able to buy people with guns to protect your property, what’s stopping you from buying people with guns to attack other peoples property? bro, the NAP dude. If everyone would just chill out and enjoy their 14 child wives then we won't have feudalism. You obviously don't understand economics.
Jace Brown
it's the means of production user you don't get that for free.
David Miller
Say it was like this:
>Spend all day working in a factory >Your labor produces $1,000 >You get 800 >The capitalist gets 200 >That 200 is surplus value
Would you still be bitching? No. Such a scenario could exist, but it doesn't, so the problem isn't capitalism, but the oyveybergs and their shabbygoys at the top colluding to drive down the wages of white men.
Jason Cox
In a world where everyone agrees to the NAP, the one person who uses violence becomes a god. Its an unstable equilibrium, hence will never effectively exist. Monopoly of violence is a stable equilibrium, and while flawed its hard to argue that there was a better, more just and fair time to have lived than now.
Asher Morales
Bro I'm trying to apply for a cashier opening, but I can't afford a cash register. What do I do?
Luis Anderson
I agree, your strawman version of anarcho-capitalism where everybody is a bloodthirsty savage who wants to instantly become a warlord and kill people, is a mess. kind of like being a non-capitalist anarchist
