Why is a loser, no-confidence mindset so common for engineers?
>typically above average intelligence
>very well compensated
>TONS of job opportunities
>can speak about complicated technical concepts with high confidence
And yet 90% of the engineers I work with are visibly scared of any type of conflict, scared of added responsibility/leadership, and DEFINITELY scared of talking to non-engineers or being client-facing.
Why do engineers have zero confidence?
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Their loss my gain.
>t. Chad R&D EE
theyre pussies.
Source: I work at a company full of engineers
>Why do engineers have zero confidence?
They think normies are as smart as they are and defer to normie overconfidence.
because the job is to pry and probe for inefficiencies. Inevitably, that energy gets directed inward and you realize you're not an infallible god, so you may as well be a pile of shit.
I depends on the sector you're in. We typically mingle good with each other. The business side people tend to play the blame game/ try and take credit for your ideas/ throw you under the bus.
I have the confidence to defend myself, but I'm compensated well enough not to care to be in the petty rat race/wanna be wolf of wallstreet drama. And the higher ups that actually promote you see through that anyway. Why play politics when you don't have to? Isn't that the high IQ route to avoid drama?
I have zero confidence in the dating side of life I have no idea why.
They are also human and make mistakes sometimes, to which everybody points and laughs at the stupid engineer who isn't perfectly correct 100% of the time. It's not just that they are insecure, they are largely mocked for their intelligence.
I think it may be reasonable to say that more controlled environments can generally be more conducive to better thought processes.
Take the order out of the room and it can create cause for concern. Additionally, there is generally more risk tied in with responsibility/leadership, that which may or may not be compensated for enough. Some jobs you practically run an entire branch of the business, risking your career path and reputation for a measly return, generally (my rep is worth more than 90k tyvm). I could go on and on, but why go after more if they are comfortable where they are. Why put themselves at more risk for what I assume to be a lower risk weighted return?
It is because we deal with complex systems all the time that yell at you if even the slightest thing goes wrong. You would have low confidence too if you were in such an abusive relationship. Compared to the systems we work with, humans are extremely forgivable machines to work with.
They inherently see flaws in things that other people don't. This breeds pessimism.
>I'm compensated well enough not to care
>Why ____ when you don't have to?
>We typically mingle good with each other.
I bet this is the exact mindset of animals on a free-range farm. You give me a real "cattle" vibe.
You realize that human beings often yell at other human beings that have *actually* done nothing wrong, right? That's what it's like being on the business side.
>I have zero confidence in the dating side of life I have no idea why.
"Women are the most dangerous plaything."
t. Nietzsche
You should be scared, user. Not being scared isn't the issue. Having enough courage to overcome the fear without shitting your pants is what you need to work on.
>You realize that human beings often yell at other human beings that have *actually* done nothing wrong, right? That's what it's like being on the business side.
No, fuck you. If you mispronounce s word, no human will bat an eye. Computer software, on the other hand, crashes. Attention to detail is in our core competency set, not yours.
I agree with your reply to the first guy though to give you some credit
>And yet 90% of the engineers I work with are visibly scared of any type of conflict, scared of added responsibility/leadership, and DEFINITELY scared of talking to non-engineers or being client-facing.
Chadism is rare in all of the population fag. Just getting a degree doesn't magically cure you of those things.
high personality trait neuroticism. It's harder for them to be confident because they perceive more risk, seeing risk is what is what makes them good engineers
>You're a cattle for not getting into petty drama and creating problems that do nothing but hinder your career
You're giving off 19 year old incel vibes. Are you watching YouTube videos on how to be an alpha male?
most people have crazy amounts of blind confidence from being retarded mathlets desu
also that image needs more pillows on the bottom
Bullish for Suterusu and Asia's excellent small space minded people, engineers. Bullish for privacy.
>typically above average intelligence
Intelligence is the ability to create wealth and climb in the social hierarchies
engineers are just tools that memorize things
>memorize things
those would be doctors. psychopath doctors become surgeons btw
Nah. Engineering is more problem solving, which is why it terrifies women.
>You give me a real "cattle" vibe
oh, aren't you a good worker bee! Remember about that bonus!
>They think normies are as smart as they are
No we don't lmao. Normies are legitimate apes
>engineers are just tools that memorize things
t. midwit
>scared of talking to non-engineers or being client-facing
In my experience this isn't really fear. It's just a waste of time and I'd rather do real work.
Doing this you will sit around talking about what you're going to do for a million fucking hours instead of actually doing it to people who don't understand either what you do or what they want in the first place.
You strike me as either someone who is overly paid or overly apathetic. Being an engineer, you’re probably both.
>engineers are just tools that memorize things
Lmfao I memorize nothing. Google is my memory bank. What now faggot?
>oh, aren't you a good worker bee! Remember about that bonus!
>You're giving off 19 year old incel vibes. Are you watching YouTube videos on how to be an alpha male?
Stop projecting anons, I gave pretty straightforward opinion, didn't mean to hit a nerve.
>In my experience this isn't really fear. It's just a waste of time and I'd rather do real work.
If you want to make a shitload of money you have to engage in conflict. This will mean getting in arguments occasionally.
I think most engineers want to just quietly sit at their desk and solve coding puzzles for 20 years, get a 4-6% raise every year, and make enough money to buy the video games they want. Not an insult, just my honest take.
>I think most engineers want to just quietly sit at their desk and solve coding puzzles for 20 years, get a 4-6% raise every year, and make enough money to buy the video games they want. Not an insult, just my honest take.
Brilliant insight. Next tell us how nurse practitioners really care about people and show high levels of empathy.
confidence comes from knowing what you are doing or talking about.
the problem is Low iq has high confidence because they don't understand that they are retarded and have no idea what they are talking about but they have an overabundance of confidence because they don't know better.
>If you want to make a shitload of money you have to engage in conflict. This will mean getting in arguments occasionally.
I'm fine with conflict. I just find most of the time spent engaging with people who don't actually make the thing to be a waste.
>I think most engineers want to just quietly sit at their desk and solve coding puzzles for 20 years, get a 4-6% raise every year, and make enough money to buy the video games they want. Not an insult, just my honest take.
Well you described me pretty well so that's at least 1/1.
I make plenty of money for the things I and my family want, I'm good riding that forever while continuing to enjoy what I do.
I think you're missing the difference between unnecessary conflict and shit that actually matters. I'm fine with conflict and face it when needed.
I'm skeptical of you even being in the work force. Unless you're in some weird anomaly most people are mentally still in highschool.
>I'm fine with conflict and face it when needed.
This. Sometimes engineers even create conflict when none is necessary. I find many to be very disagreeable.
My brother went for engineering and close to graduation it became clear that one of his main strengths was being a tall white Chad who isn't autistic.
Now he has a job and he says higher ups are relieved whenever they don't have to deal with Indians or social outcasts, so he is well liked.
Intuition for the nature of altercation. It's game theory, and it's easier to lay down and die until it's time to bite, homeostatic balance is better achieved that way, which is more conducive to work/life balance.
If you play tug of war with somebody and they lose they're liable to go whine about it, and unless you're a real suckdick whoever cried first catches the benefit of the doubt, unless you're hyper-manipulative which plays against homeostasis, which is the ideal.
They win, and you can go do the same thing, but in either case you can expect some reciprocal effect built out of spite. The reality is it's best to understand that homeboy is probably going to dig himself into a hilariously shitty hole and won't be able to leverage himself out. I've seen it repeatedly occur. It's not your responsibility to correct an adult person's course unless it effects yours in a dire manner.
>have a very white name, think "John McDouglas"
>be assigned to an account, client audibly relieve when I introduce myself on the phone
>one day, get taken off that account
>I introduce him to my replacement, "Patel Singh"
>can hear the pain in the clients voice when he says "nice to meet you patel"
2 years and 2 promotions away from that job later, I still hear from the client how bad it sucks now
Sounds like me, I’m an engineer, tall straight white male. There are some real dorks in the field, but a lot of normal dude with above average smarts.
OP is onto something though, even though from the outside I’m tall chad, I don’t have as much confidence as I want.
I wish I was just more deluded enough to just speak where I always sound right. I’ve seen that if you delivery things as if you’re 100% sure about it, it’s rarely questioned. And if your assertions are questioned you just say “I’ll look into that!”
>And if your assertions are questioned you just say “I’ll look into that!”
That's because that's how business works. Take whatever people give you, and when they apply resistance, you regroup so that you've covered your bases. Then once you have, you start taking even more.
It's kind of a loser thing to be dealing only with non-abstract, concrete matters, and they probably realize how there is no glory to engineering other than selling your labor really dear. Engineers never actually create anything for themselves
40% of the worlds billionaires are engineers
Because they're interested in things, not people. Thats the mark of a true man
Engineer here. For me I never had conflict from childhood to college. I was under the assumption that people acted like "adults." Then the real world hit me, I grew some tough skin and started telling people to fuck off or just avoiding them. I feel like older engineers might just tell you to eat a dick.
Normies can speak from a place of ignorance, while engineers have to argue from knowledge. If you're used to making shit up on the fly about things you don't know about (or are not certain about), you'll be better prepared when you confront the unknown. When placed in a new situation, Engineers tend to recoil and keep quiet, since they're not used to dealing with uncertainty / the unknown.
Most engineers I've worked with are simp manchildren. Gonna repost a greentext that I made about my time in one of the cliché startup companies.
>be me, 21 year old senior backend software engineer, 150k USD salary
>not engaged in HR "corporate culture" bullshit and not too keen on smalltalk with the manchildren at the office
>follow my father's footsteps (and his father's too) and show up to work every day in suit and tie (no, not a cheap shitty men's warehouse suit) because I respect my profession and believe looking well put-together is important
>get told by HR that manchildren in the office are starting to resent me because the way I look and speak gives off "aristocratic" and "elitist" vibes
>disregard this pre-emptive warning
>eventually get my own small team and deliver first project ahead of schedule with excellent quality
>tell team members who report to me that they can do whatever the fuck they want and come in whenever they want as long as the work gets done when it needs to be done
>refuse to micromanage my team and put time reports and shit in JIRA and other worktracking services
>start working from home regularly and showing up at the office at 12PM whenever I am at the office
>team produces new stuff constantly, productivity is highest in company, and all goes very well
>this goes on for months
>rest of company eventually gets supremely jealous at our working conditions that I put in place for my team
>king manchild in other team starts to block my pull requests and badmouths me to senior management claiming that my code is insecure and terrible
>get pulled into a meeting with HR and senior management putting me on an improvement plan
>constantly smiles when talking to the the engineering manager which pisses him off as I "wasn't taking the meeting seriously"
>engineering manager starts to think I'm outsourcing code to India because productivity was too high for the amount of time i was spending in the office
>gets let go the next week
These events took place in the shithole city that is London. Should add that I'm tall, white, have a head full of hair, and have a public school-ish English accent. This obviously triggers NORFeners to no end.
The tons of job opportunities are a bit deceptive, as most of them require tons of experience.
We're not exactly scared of conflict, but we pick our battles carefully.
We're not actually scared of talking to non engineers, but we can appear that way because we're not very good at it; we don't understand how normies think. Things that are obvious to us are usually hard, and sometimes impossible, to convince them.
Higher intelligence generally gives people a lot of self doubt and awareness. It's called the dunning kruger effect.
this happened
I know it sounds unbelievable and unlikely, but let me assure you that this did actually happen. This isn't even the peak of the iceberg of what kind of crazy shit goes down in startups.
>visibly scared of any type of conflict, scared of added responsibility/leadership
Engineers look at the goal, current status and what is required to get to the goal. If its beyond capabilities or not worth it, then why bother wasting time on it.
Engineers are only interested in power if it helps to reach a goal. Being given inapproriate power results in being under more presure to perform without the support or tools to reach a goal. A lose-lose situation that is best to be avoided.
Getting a slap on the back for results that you know are unsustainable is the worst feeling as an engineer, even if you can get away with it.
>live, laugh, love
This still pisses me off everytime I think about it. I have never been to a women's place where this wasn't there.
>40% of the worlds billionaires are engineers
when they get it, they really get it
youtu.be
>conflict
not my problem, let me do my work and fuck off
>responsibility/leadership
Engineers usually watch overhead and management make all kinds of dumb decisions and just don't care, just focus on getting shit done
>client-facing
>give indepth feedback
>manager gets mad you gave them new ideas or more work or something
engineers life is suffering because of all the dumb people around you. You start to realize it after a while
>start working from home regularly and showing up at the office at 12PM whenever I am at the office
>team produces new stuff constantly, productivity is highest in company, and all goes very well
sounds familiar
I had something similar at an old company too
jealous weak men are always the problem, at work they're worse and more dangerous than the women
Women can be vicious, but at least you know they don't have any honor. Weak men are easily underestimated and can deceive you for longer.
>engineers are just tools that memorize things
t. /lit/fag
because they are spergs
I'm at a shit state uni so it might be different at more prestigious institutions but a lot of people who would have gone engineering didn't even think about it because they all think the field is dying. And they're right. All the people I do see going engineering are all "lel Cs get degrees" literal 105 IQ retards, and no they're not doing it ironically. What happened to the field? Is it really gonna get outsourced to pajeets as quickly as software dev?
Most are just average at their job and being generally intelligent they're aware of it. Also ego is a big thing, they think being the engineer they need to deduce every answer to every question themselves and are constantly wasting time trying to figure something out which a single phone call could solve in 1 min. That type of person get hit hard when they make a single mistake.
Yes. Why do you think Boeing planes can't stay in the air anymore?
Strict parents. A lot of engineers are engineers because their parents wanted them to be engineers or else they got no support because they didn't want their kids to be losers.