Now that the dust has settled

seething christcucks

Both were 'wrong' by tradition, but Marius is who started them down that road, so the wrong began with him and the weak-ass Senate that wouldn't stop fellating him.

It's still based on the birth of Christ. Literally pointless.

I don't get it, giving the lower class men right to bear arms created a dictatorship? Wtf?

They were both wrong, but Sulla was more wrong for normalizing marching on Rome. That's what ultimately killed the Republic, using the military to threaten the government.

Is there a problem?

Doesn't change the fact that year 1 in our current year counting system is because of Christ's birth. You don't have to be a Christian to acknowledge him as a historical figure, retard.

>arm the Capite Censii
That was the only way to maintain an army because the *ptimates replaced all the workers and small landowners with foreign slaves.

This, it's ahistorical to call it anything but BC/AD, what makes the year -1 more "common" than the year 1? Nothing, it was always just jewish cope over Jesus.

Truth. Salvation only lies though Christ rephen before it’s too late.

Both were awful people who’s actions ended up destroying everything they cherished and loved.

I went to catholic school for 12 years and we still used BCE in any grade past middle school.

It was because of how their social system was set up. Prior to Marius's reforms, Roman legions were made up of landholding citizens with vested interest in maintaining Rome's social order and had the dosh to afford their arms and equipment, and all were either a part of or heavily involved with the Senate as a whole. After Marius's reforms, effectively Roman military might was divorced from that vested interest, transferring the loyalty of the soldiers, who were now professionals instead of landholder national guard, from the Senate as a body to their generals, most of whom were consuls, proconsuls, praetors, or propraetors, who were specific Senators with their own agendas most of the time, but a sufficiently wealthy citizen who wasn't even in the Senate could afford to raise legions under the new system.

If they hadn't murdered the Gracchi to prevent land reform then none of the civil wars would ever have happened. Rome might still be around today.

Notice how Jews and old Jew call Christmas X mas. They can’t ever bear to say his name in any context.

Why is this on Yas Forums

The Gracchi were firebrand revolutionists who would have thrown aside Rome for their own interests. They should have been crucified for abusing tribune privilege.

The one who loses is always the one in the wrong.

Catholics follow have followed a series of false popes who supported homosexuality and Islam and feminism. Such anti Christian rhetoric is to be expected by them.

This. The patricians and senators killed the republic by holding all the land and wealth in a tiny (less than 1% of the population) group, and then they expected the other 99.9% to just go along with it. The wealthy Roman elite had no desire to fight and would have been a tiny fraction of the armed forces the Republic actually needed anyways, so they had to open up the army to any free pleb who could wield a gladius. Once the army was composed of poorfag plebs with no prospects rather than middle and upper class citizens who actually had a stake in government, it became trivial for any ambitious general to just gather a bunch of legions who were personally loyal to him and then march on Rome.

The Patricians and Senatorial classes literally caused their own downfall through greed and apathy.

The lower classes were literally poorer than slaves, they live on grain gibs by the senate because who the fuck would hire them when they could just buy a slave. Marius gave them the chance of becoming middle class by fighting in the armies, this meant a lot of wars, dictators then emperors and then g*rmans fucking it all up

So it goes.

Sorry you don't have a leader chosen by God, user. Try not to be so sour grapes about it.

Hey rome/greek autists. Can you help me find anything from then about "Utopia"?
I remember Plato had something to say about it but I'm bad at Google and am a brainlet.

BASED BASED BASED

Sulla for not declaring himself emperor

They invited Germans in to be the army of should have come as no shock to anyone at the time that they seized power. I genuinely don’t what the Romans where thinking. Then Again I’m America we’ve lost every substained war we’ve since we let blacks Mexican in the army and our reaction to this was to let women and grannies join in active combat roles too.

>be hereditary nobility
>get to enjoy expansive economic and political power in exchange for an obligation to defend the country in times of war
>decide you're having too much fun overseeing your slave plantation to fight and pass that responsibility off to the plebs
>plebs decide they would like some of that political and economic power, since they're now doing all the fighting
>laugh at them and tell them they're traitors spitting in the face of tradition
>be shocked when they mutiny and kill you before taking your land

400 years of Roman history that repeated itself over and over until the Germans came in and reset everything back to nobles having to do the fighting.

Marius for being obsessed with muh 7th consulship. Should have retired with dignity. Sulla was a massive cunt too however.

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>Gracchi: stop replacing free Roman small time landowners and the Roman working class with slaves
>NOOOOOO YOURE A REVOLUTIONARY OFF WITH YOUR HEAD
>Optimates have the best interest of the Republic at heart that's why they're replacing the locals who have bene part of the state for centuries with foreign

Maybe the Republic deserved to burn, I mean if the elite are that stupid and greedy, what can you expect?

>Chosen by God for life
>Actually elected by cardinals and is able to resign

Sorry the Church lies but by supporting at this point you’re committing a grave sin.

>The Patricians and Senatorial classes literally caused their own downfall through greed and apathy.
And history is repeating itself.

Plato's utopia was Atlantis

Yep it's happened many times. Never try to use mercenaries if you can't control them.

all this tells me is that you're a zoomer

Utopia is a Greek word meaning 'no place' or 'non-existent place'. Eutopia is also a Greek word meaning 'good place'. Sir Thomas More stole the word 'utopia' to name an island after in one of his stories to categorize a 'better place', but he might have really meant to use eutopia instead (they're pronounced the same when spoken aloud). Plato first brought up 'utopia' in The Republic, a sort of 'what-if' society of rigid strata commanded by philosopher-kings.

more like gays marry-us mirite

People who make decisions for nations should never be allowed become so out of touch.

>God chooses pederast rapers and corrupt priests as his representatives on Earth
What did God mean by this?

You're thinking of Plato's "Republic," in which he posits that the ideal form of government is an oligarchy/senate of philosopher kings leading the other classes. That's the quick version anyways. It's a good read but it basically boils down to "muh enlightened dictator."

The Marian reforms still required you to be born citizen of Rome to be in the Legion. Free Men (former slaves) and non-Romans need not apply. Now, the Legions did have tons of allied troops and auxiliaries, but they weren't technically considered true legionaries. Germans and former slaves wouldn't be allowed to directly join the legions until much later on.

This. Optimates were niggers who thought they could club reformers to death forever.

This, there is no point behind it except to be a fedora. It's like trying to take off references to God on your currency. Imagine being that this skinned

>They invited Germans in to be the army of should have come as no shock to anyone at the time that they seized power.

It's simple they didn't trust the lower classes anymore not even as soldiers, they wanted them all tied to the land after the Crisis of the 3rd Century proved any general could claim to be emperor and march on Rome. Romans needed to be unarmed peasants, instead they would bribe the German and Dacian barbarians to fight for them since Rome had the shiny coins and trinkets to buy their loyalty. That worked for about 200 years before the Barbarians became assimilated and realized they could just seize power themselves.

You're forgetting:
>Gracchi: stop owning all the land and give it and all the state's money to the poor while enfranchising the Latins so they all get on the dole too even if it would bankrupt the Republic entirely
The Republic had its issues, but the Gracchan reforms would have had Rome on its knees like a whore before the other Latin cities that were its rightful thralls.

Sulla was forced down that path though. Marius was more in the wrong, but the conflict between populists and optimates was brewing intensely at least since the Grachi.

>eu/U
I guess this was what I was missing.
So was Plato's republic also a "U"topia, in that he acknowledged it was an impossibility? Or a Eutopia in that he actually thought it was possible?

If by worked you mean they’re was constant revolts that ended up breaking the empire apart serval times. Sure. It’s too bad Spartacus didn’t seize Roman and kill all the Rome elite. I think everyone would have been better off.

With how The Republic reads, Plato seemed to be throwing it out there as a 'maybe in the future we could have this' scenario government that succeeding generations should be aspiring to achieve and maintain. I don't think he seriously believed any of the Greek city-states of his era could have done it.

>doesn't believe in divine inspiration
>doesn't believe in transubstantiation
>doesn't believe in ritual and tradition
>god is just a warm fuzzy feeling when I pretend to be a real believer online
Try again, faggot. Among my teachers were nuns and priests. Why the fuck do public school rejects think they have any basis to make these bullshit claims?
>God chooses pederast rapers and corrupt priests as his representatives on Earth
Yes. God regularly chooses sinners as his representatives. You would know this if you'd ever read His book.

actually it’s okay to follow the church even if it’s composed entirely of pedophiles. the church said so.

fucking this
Jews pushed it on schools, not kidding

It's not 'His' book, pillbug, it's like 50 other guys' book, and that faggot Saul/Paul self-inserting himself doesn't help your case.

>stop owning all the land and give it and all the state's money to the poor
By "poor" you mean the small land owners who had owned and farmed the land for centuries until the 3rd Punic War.
>enfranchising the Latins so they all get on the dole too even if it would bankrupt the Republic entirely
They only had to go on the dole when their jobs were replaced by foreign slaves which was the result of the optimates buying up all the conquered land kicking off the original inhabitants and replacing them, that's what was causing such economic turmoil. Small landownership was the most efficient and least destructive option, but it ate into profits of the *ptimates so they would never let it happen, even if it would have saved the Republic.

Sulla was fighting for his honor, that's what forced him into the conflict he wasn't fighting for the Republic like Marius.

Marius was a fucking god. A saviour of Rome.

FUCK Sulla fags

I believe in all those things I just think you’re a evil person if you follow the abomination in Rome at this point. You have defense. Praying for God to give you mercy. Bless.

none of what you said makes me think you're any less of a zoomer

*No defense

>doesn't believe in divine inspiration
Yes, we already covered this. You aren't actually a believer, it's just a convenient cover for your holier than thou attitude.

You smell of Arian heresy.

both of them were self-serving retards that killed the republic and nearly killed Rome
if anyone other than Augustus had come out on top Rome would have ended then and there

Whoa that clears it up then.

>the heretic faggot isn't satisfied
Couldn't give two shits. Doesn't change reality.

What? Do you even know what that is?

I'm divinely inspired to call you a faggot.

that you're a zoomer faggot? yeah none of what you say really matters we all already knew that

Something blessed Augustine rightly put in its place: the bottom of the divine boot, to be scraped off and sent parcel post to Hell from whence it came.

>I know you are, but what am I
Real high effort retort there, gentlemen.

>these faggot barbarian shits fucking up a based Roman thread with BC vs BCE autism

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That's overselling Marius he was still a politician after all, but he wanted to save the Republic, while Sulla cared about his image and personal honor.
>retards
retards don't get triumphs, they die in battle surrounded by barbarians. A retard couldn't have beaten the Cimbri and Teutons as Marius did or the Numidae, Pontus, and the Italic rebels like Sulla

>doesn't address being called a zoomer
>NOOO YOU'RE A HERETIC
larping underage tourist is all you are.

>seething
That would be (You)

No. Explain what it actually believes and how that relates to anything I said.

>these faggot Romanboo shits fucking up the television and film board with history autism

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>I went to catholic school for 12 years and we still used BCE
In Catholic school, BCE stands for "Before Christian Era".

Allowing Christians to exist was a mistake that has cost the world centuries of time and trillions of dollars in waste.

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Counterpoint rich fool can easily live charmed life’s that looked at objectivity are full of folly.