>Many of the criticisms lobbied against The Last Jedi purported it retconned The Force Awakens in order to meet Johnson's vision, taking things in a different direction for the sake of surprising the audience with expectation subversions. Despite that belief, Force Awakens and Rise of Skywalker helmsman J.J. Abrams said nothing in The Last Jedi contradicted The Force Awakens, allowing him to wrap up the Star Wars sequel trilogy the way he saw fit. However, it appears members of Abrams' crew didn't feel the same way and have some strong opinions about The Last Jedi.
>Brandon: "I feel very much like, in hindsight, that the trilogy, the last part of the trilogy, needed one vision."
>Markey: "I couldn't agree more. It's very strange to have the second film... consciously undo the storytelling of the first film. I'm sorry, that's what it felt like."
>'s a pretty bold statement to claim The Last Jedi aimed to "consciously undo" The Force Awakens. Johnson's approach definitely didn't work for everyone as he thought outside the box on some plot developments, but a case can be made he was trying to build on The Force Awakens in his own unique way. Twists like Snoke's death weren't necessarily in line with audience predictions, though on close analysis, none of them seem to negate the information relayed in The Force Awakens.
>Of course, it's worth wondering how different opinions might have been if Colin Trevorrow was able to make his Duel of the Fates, which reads on-paper as more of a proper followup to The Last Jedi than The Rise of Skywalker. It's a little shocking to hear the Rise of Skywalker editing team make these comments publicly, but it just goes to show how impossible it is to please everyone when it comes to Star Wars - even the people who work on the movies.
Further proof that there was no plan to begin with.
Star Wars 9 Editors Argue Last Jedi "Undid" Force Awakens
bump
>Further proof that there was no plan to begin with.
the plan was to destroy the legacy of all white males
>"I couldn't agree more. It's very strange to have the third film... consciously undo the storytelling of the second film. I'm sorry, that's what it felt like."
Ftfy
Why didn’t they use George’s treatments!
butwhy.jpg
>'s a pretty bold statement to claim The Last Jedi aimed to "consciously undo" The Force Awakens.
I can't stand the parts of The Last Jedi that don't involve Luke, but I find it hard to believe that it undid TFA.
I mean, they're completely right. The Force Awakens was derivative and uninspired, but it was at lest a competent Star Wars movie that set up initial motivations for all the main characters. Had they properly followed the character arcs set up in the first one then Rey, Poe, and Finn might have ended up as interesting characters. Instead we have Luke trying to kill his nephew and drinking green milk, the guy who should have been the main villain killed off which made them so desperate they had to bring Sheev back, a pointless subplot with Poe that left his character with nothing to do and no development, yo mama jokes, and a setup for 9 that was impossible to salvage. I dislike Abrams because he's a hack with no originality, but he was put in a horrible position with The Rise of Skywalker.
Indeed.
It's as if they're trying to imply this trilogy even had a plan to begin with, which wasn't the case.
>Further proof that there was no plan to begin with.
Plan was make money and sell [thing with LOGO] to CONSOOMERS.
Let's be realistic here though, it did undermine TFA (which undermined the OT).
All of this should not redeem that shitshow. TFA is bad. As bad as TLJ for different reasons.
Should have been so simple yet they manage to fuck even that up.
>though on close analysis, none of them seem to negate the information relayed in The Force Awakens.
How the fuck do these retards always miss the point. The complaints in this situation weren't that he contradicted established information in TFA (although he did do exactly that for Star Wars lore in general), it was that he took the set up for plot arcs and deliberately spiked them. Why are these faggots so insistent on bending over backwards to defend Rian?
>but it just goes to show how impossible it is to please everyone when it comes to Star Wars
I'm so sick of hearing this. Mandalorian was received quite well by the vast majority of fans. Journalists are such pieces of shit.
And Rise of Skywalker undid The Last Jedi.
It's pretty pathetic that they couldn't just continue on from where the last one left off. But it's probably worse that ROS didn't take up any plot thread that came from TLJ. It very deliberately said fuck you to TLJ.
What the audience is left is a completely inconsistent trilogy. There's nothing of depth or substance within these films.
This, basically.
>TFA made the OT pointless.
>TLJ made TFA pointless.
>TRoS made the entire saga pointless, including itself.
>Let's be realistic here though, it did undermine TFA (which undermined the OT).
I agree with the idea that it completely undermined the point of the OT, but let's not pretend that JJ didn't play a part in putting Luke on that island.
If JJ wanted an active Luke, the logical entry point is when the lightsaber is wiggling in the snow.
In fact, they could have put Luke in Rise beyond a cameo, too.
It’s absolutely right, but TFA was no free of guilt either.
>TFA does a glib facsimile of ANH and lazily adds a bunch of mystery boxes for the next movies to solve
>TLJ unapologetically gets rid of almost all mystery boxes for the sake of subversion, finishes destroying all plot threads hanging from the previous movie
>ROS just tries to distance from it by going all “HEY REMEBER SHEEV HERE’S SHEEV HE WAS THE BAD GUY ALL ALONG” for pure nostalgia grabs, taking a shit on all previous movies, including the PT and OT
Come to think of it, story groups job must be pretty easy considering that nothing in the setting really changed over the course of the sequel trilogy. Like there’s no real galactic difference before and after difference to fuck with the cannon. Make me wonder if that was the plan the whole time and they just cucked us all into paying for the lucasfilm purchase while they work on the original, non-skywalker stories they’ve actually cared about the whole time.
Sad thing is, even this pathetic conspiracy theory is probably giving them too much credit -_-
>It's pretty pathetic that they couldn't just continue on from where the last one left off. But it's probably worse that ROS didn't take up any plot thread that came from TLJ.
I think it's because TLJ is fucking retarded. Consider hyperspace ramming.
>but let's not pretend that JJ didn't play a part in putting Luke on that island.
Huh? I said TFA undermined the OT.
>TFA undid OT
>TLJ undid TFA
>RoS undid TLJ
AH GOOD THE FIRE RISES
>It's pretty pathetic that they couldn't just continue on from where the last one left off.
.....how could you possibly continue on from TLJ? It's next to impossible without rebooting. It retroactively shut down TFA and left virtually nothing for TRoS to work off of. Rian deliberately made it sequel-proof.
If the legacy of white males can be destroyed by cultural flotsam like Star Wars it deserves to be destroyed
>Huh? I said TFA undermined the OT.
They could have done a meaningful thing where Luke is the Grand Master facing off against old enemies, but no.
It's hard to say because if you believe everything implied in the image, then the Story Group and JJ mutually hated working with each other, but the Story Group and Rian were okay with each other. But then JJ got brought back and he shut out the Story Group (this makes sense because of how it contradicted everything that was established about the ST characters and the Guide book had to come up with some flimsy explanations for stupid things)
So in this scenario, everyone is at fault.
People who say TLJ left IX nothing to work with are brainlets who literally cant engage with Star Wars unless it's just copying the OT
Rise of Skywalker is shit, but what exactly did it undo about TLJ? Sure it had some lines about Holdo manuever and Luke tossing his lightsaber, but it's not like TLJ actually left any plot lines to undo in the first place. TLJ's ending was completely empty. It ended exactly where it started and the only things it really contributed to the """story""" was the romances of Finn/Rose and Rey/Kylo. RoS did drop the Rose romance, but what plot threads could it have even picked up from TLJ?
>Further proof that there was no plan to begin with.
>Further
wut?
I remember watching an interview with Hamill around the release of TFA in which he stated there wasn't anything written to explain what Luke was up to between TLJ and TFA. So then I realized that if they didn't bother to give Luke Skywalker a backstory, they didn't bother to write a story. I didn't watch TFA, waiting to see if the next installment would manage to give everything some meaning. I laughed my ass off when I heard Disney hired the guy who wrote Looper. That was the moment Disney's Star Wars project died.
Yeah, and they didn't do that because they were intentionally and unintentionally undermining the OT.
Cmon now you’re looking for excuses. Screenplay writers are supposed to be creative people, a good writer could have figured out a dozen better dictions to go than what they did. Which really makes me wonder how Disney, with its billions of dollars and network of creatives, screwed up so bad
>Noooo why wasnt muh childhood hero le epic super badass how dare they make him a tragic hero who ultimately rises above his trauma and becomes more powerful than you can possibly imagine
>Come to think of it, story groups job must be pretty easy considering that nothing in the setting really changed over the course of the sequel trilogy. Like there’s no real galactic difference before and after difference to fuck with the cannon. Make me wonder if that was the plan the whole time and they just cucked us all into paying for the lucasfilm purchase while they work on the original, non-skywalker stories they’ve actually cared about the whole time.
>implying nu-Lucasfilm gives a shit about anything other than virtue signaling
Easy, Kylo is the big bad and must face the consequences of his actions. He has to come to terms with finally getting what he wanted. Rey is the only thing keeping the Resistance going and has to consider if she even needs their help. Finn needs to figure out how to escape Miss Piggy.
Plenty of ways to continue from TLJ. JJ chose to ignore all of them and make a sequel to TFA instead.
The Mandalorian was well-received because the creative team for it had a genuine love of Star Wars and respect for the source material. The people behind the sequel trilogy just wanted to make money, and in Rian's case in particular he wanted to be subversive to show how clever he was and how he was beyond the simple hero's journey tale portrayed in Star Wars.
>between TLJ and TFA
Should've been between ROTJ and TFA, obviously.
Nah.
All the building blocks for the disaster that is The Last Jedi were already there in The Force Awakens, Rey was already a Mary Sue, Finn had already beaten Phasma, Poe was already a vehicle for anti-male propaganda, Han and Leia had already been destroyed.
The idea that JJ didn't set out to destroy the legacy of Star Wars from day 1 is patently inane, all Rian Johnson did was follow up on his work while failing to set up a final movie.
>'s a pretty bold statement to claim The Last Jedi aimed to "consciously undo" The Force Awakens
It's just an obvious fact even the audience can see
>Noooo why wasnt muh childhood hero le epic super badass how dare they make him a tragic hero who ultimately rises above his trauma and becomes more powerful than you can possibly imagine
I actually like the course that Rian took with Luke because it's mythological. I'm just pointing out that if you don't really like it, you shouldn't really blame Rian.
Have sex
>Easy, Kylo is the big bad and must face the consequences of his actions. He has to come to terms with finally getting what he wanted. Rey is the only thing keeping the Resistance going and has to consider if she even needs their help. Finn needs to figure out how to escape Miss Piggy.
>Plenty of ways to continue from TLJ. JJ chose to ignore all of them and make a sequel to TFA instead.
Here's your problem:
NONE of the Sequel characters are good enough or interesting to begin with.
Poe never has to face being the leader of the Resistance as Leia is still the leader even though it was his entire arc in TLJ.
Kylo now has a new boss to be subservient to, even though his entire arc was getting out from under Snoke.
Hux is now a traitor for no reason.
Rey has to train for some reason.
Finn literally does nothing.
The Resistance is now just as big, and somehow now has everyone supporting them.
The First Order is now 1 Million times stronger.
>Nooooo stop complaining about muh sequel trilogy how dare you say muh moobies are bad, you just want le epic super badass strawman i made up
>I actually like the course that Rian took with Luke because it's mythological.
Fuck off.
>Haha if I say strawman I win even though I'm doing exactly what I'm being accused of
They really aren't but you can't do much worse with them than ROS.
Soijack shill is projecting again.
nobody cared who I was until I directed star wars.
>Fuck off.
Nah. The rest of the movie sucked, but I like Luke's arc.
The arc is fine, it's the details that suck.
It'd all be fixed if Snoke revealed he was projecting visions of Ben's fall into Luke's head. But that's a story for DLC.
>implying nu-Lucasfilm gives a shit about anything other than virtue signaling
desu I thought they cared about making money? I always assumed that they thought virtue signaling could sell better, rather than those who say that these lives are an elaborate plot to push a social agenda of some sort.
idk I guess I don’t know too much how the system works and who gets to decide what, this whole corporate machine is a lot more complicated than just having George Lucas sitting around on his day ass and deciding what Star Wars is on a whim. Even though a lot of people assume he just made the prequels to sell toys, somehow that’s like a quaint notion at this point
Uhh, no.
TLJ doesn't do anything that TFA didn't do before (Mary Sue feminazi protagonist, diversity hire with cheap arc, flimsy anti-men strawman, old and miserable depictions of previous heroes, plot photocopied from two episodes prior), it was just more blatantly malignant about it.
Its only failing that isn't a reflection of the other two films was to throw the main plotline away and not substitute it for anything new, so ROS feels asspulled and unorganic.
In reality, Rian's movie is pretty much what JJ wanted it to be sans some key but ultimately irrelevant differences, and JJ is only adamantly against it now because the entire trilogy is garbage and he needs a way to toss the blame on someone else.
>The arc is fine, it's the details that suck.
My only problem is that I learned that Luke doesn't actually train Rey in Rise or participate beyond two scenes on the island.
Maybe I’m being naïve, but I really do believe that people wouldn’t have been mad if they took Star Wars in this direction if the movie was well paced and well written. TLJ’s structural problems were a lot more problematic than any of its individual plot twists
Would love if Bob Iger quit and KK/Lucasfucks Story Group are fired followed by a Star Wars short film that shows the sequels were really just dark visions in the troubled mind of a comatose Luke Skywalker. Luke stands and leaves the room, revealing the temple of the New Jedi Order and the dozens of Jedi of all ages that inhabit it. The kiddos from the sequels can be jedi extras to show the blame isn't on them. Next movie would be titled Star Wars: Reclaimed Legacy as a nod to the real world drama, but in-movie would actually allude to a dark jedi on a quest to awaken an ancient Sith weapon.
Every major character in the OT has an arc that makes sense and feels fulfilled. The characters act in the way you would expect them to at the point in the story where they're at.
Despite the movies flaws, every major character in the PT has an arc that makes sense, though sometimes the arc is portrayed in a clumsy way. For the most part the characters act in the way you would expect them to at the point in the story where they're at, though there are occasional stretches in logic nothing too absurd occurs.
Characters in the ST have no arc whatsoever outside of Kylo Ren. Their actions make no sense and vary from movie to movie and even from scene to scene, and in many cases their characterization betrays their characterization in earlier movies. The Rise of Skywalker didn't have to completely undo TLJ but it was going to be a terrible movie no matter what because of how hard TLJ shit the bed.
>Plenty of ways to continue from TLJ
How do you continue a story when you killed your only intimidating villain and made the other two into laughing stocks who can't beat a skinny girl?
>Poe never has to face being the leader of the Resistance as Leia is still the leader even though it was his entire arc in TLJ.
TLJ never established him as being the new leader of the Resistance. The moment of Leia trusting him to take the lead was an indicator of redemption and forgiveness, that he had learned his lesson about questioning authority and had turned to her for approval before acting. There was never any indication that Leia wouldn't be the leader in the next movie.
>Kylo now has a new boss to be subservient to, even though his entire arc was getting out from under Snoke.
This is true.
>Hux is now a traitor for no reason
This is a valid follow up to both TFA and TLJ, especially after TLJ flat out showed him considering killing Kylo. Execution was still shit though.
>Rey has to train for some reason.
This isn't undoing anything from TLJ, it's just doing something (too late) that both TFA and TLJ failed to do.
>Finn literally does nothing.
Same as TLJ
>The Resistance is now just as big, and somehow now has everyone supporting them.
True, but it's hard to really take note of that with how much both sides randomly fluctuate in fighting power throughout the whole trilogy
>The First Order is now 1 Million times stronger.
If anything that stays completely faithful to TLJ
Based.
>the Story Group and JJ mutually hated working with each other, but the Story Group and Rian were okay with each other
Consider my expectations subverted
That's such a super tough thing to say. Very tough statement. Super bad ass.
But I ask you this.. When EVERY modern child has positive mainstream media representation in their life.. To share with friends and family. Except white children because all of the established heroes were killed and turned into depressed hobos.. What do those children do?
Because of nepotism, both Jewish and non. The producers are retards who hire their friends and their kids, it doesn't require talent or a love of craft to work for them. Occasionally talent does come to the surface, but that is a lucky rarity in this day and age.
This is why I shill for Disney ;) fuck whitey
Well technically, TFA succeeded on that front
I get the feeling that JJ truly wanted to make a great Star Wars movie, he's just a hack who spent his entire career copying Spielberg so he has no idea how to make a movie with qualities beyond surface level imitation.
Or maybe have Rey become the main villain as she becomes too powerful. Ya just have to be creative.
Because there were no plot points in tlj to continue?
>The resistance is 30 people
>Snoke is dead and there's no one to take his place except Kylo who Rey's already beaten twice
>Luke is dead and his entire backstory was explained as him being a depressed idiot who tried to murder his nephew for shits
>every major character in the PT has an arc that makes sense,
>Please help me save Padme, I will do anything
>Oh yea, I actually can't do that, sorry bro, but I guess if you just go murder some children for me we *might* be able to learn how to save Padme somewhere down the line
>Oh yeah that makes sense, even though I know she's going to die in childbirth and she looks like she's gonna pop any day now, yeah I'm sure if I kill all those kids that'll help her!
Brilliant George, truly an artist
TFA and TLJ flow pretty well imo unless you wanted Snoke to be Darth Icky or something, I think the problems of the sequel trilogy can be wholly laid at Rise of Skywalker for being a massive backpedal and a movie that's clearly terrified of its own fanbase
read books, have positive familial role models, play pretend with friends, watch old movies. You're falling into their weird mentality that if people don't have positive media representation they won't have good self esteem, which is fucking stupid.
>Would love if Bob Iger quit
>if
Oh... you haven't heard?
>Execution was still shit though.
That pretty much sums up ROS. Any ideas that do follow up from TLJ don't work, and neither do any of its original ideas.
>Ya just have to be creative.
Why does Disney assume that being creative is a recipe for *losing* money
when everybody complained that they were playing it too safe? I feel like people blame Rian Johnson for that, so I guess he ruined it for everybody?
>I'm sorry, that's what it felt like
doxx this nazi now!
I really like that Hux betrayed the First Order over the pettiest shit and died like the joke he is
The problem is that it feels like a hastily written sideplot to just jettison the character and replace him with Allegiant Generic Tarkin Clone because Thrawn autists complained Hux wasn't le epically badass xD enough
>but let's not pretend that JJ didn't play a part in putting Luke on that island
This is like if Rian had made ROTJ and, in it, Luke killed himself halfway through because he couldn't deal with his dad being a crazy evil murderer and then some idiot like you says that Kirshner and Kasdan are just as much to blame as Rian because they decided on the twist in the first place
But that would require the films to first and foremost not be woke current year feminist propaganda; they would never allow their Mary Sue protagonist to be anything but perfect from the get-go because it could accidentally show that women aren't perfect god-like beings who can't make mistakes or be evil.
Also, Rey suddenly becoming a villain would just be another asspull on the same level of the Palpy clone because it similarly was never foreshadowed.
The reality is that the only plan they ever had for these movies was "Women good, men bad" and that's about it.
have sex, incel
Is Dave Filoni not Jewish enough or something? He has actual passion for his work and has a record of success, I don’t get why he’s not calling the shots LucasFilm by this point. Kennedy might have been a good lackey for George but she’s really not the right person to run the show, and yet Disney keeps her around why? I don’t get it, considering how much Disney likes to play it safe and how they’ve canned much better people for much smaller failures
I thought the idea of a dogmatic, crazed, Imperial would be cool to work with. TLJ made him half a joke and ROS made him completely idiotic.
Agent Kallus was a good example of a traitor.
>Kirshner and Kasdan are just as much to blame as Rian because they decided on the twist in the first place
That scenario came out of nowhere. JJ literally ended TFA with Rey approaching Luke on the island.
>It's a little shocking to hear the Rise of Skywalker editing team make these comments publicly
Is it though? Or is it just the people who created the least fun SW movie blaming someone else?
I would absolutely prefer that, but if it was done it wouldn't be considered a continuation to what TLJ set up. In fact, TLJ established the complete opposite by making Rey refuse to be corrupted.