Did Sauron represent the Nazis or the Jews?

I don't think you know what capitalism is.

He did nothing for profit, and did it all for total control over the mortal world once all of the other ancients were gone. He didn't do this shit in ancient times because there was tons of opposition that could kick his ass.

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profit is control you dumb mutt

It reminds me of a song by the German metal band Coroner. People bind themselves because the bindings are made of gold.

Shit forgot to add it.

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>expansion for expansions sake
>have to grab more resources no matter what

You're too stupid to perceive the themes.

The Jews are the dwarves

What does that have to do with wealth? Wealth isn't what corrupts. Its pride. See: Numenor, Feanor, Morgoth, etc.

Are you kidding me? Wealth is intertwined with pride. If you have the money you have the troops and the illusion of an empire.

What does a balrog get paid?

The balrogs are loyal dogs of morgoth even if they are sentient. They were corrupted by their maker Morgoth so they always seek to return to him.

You see my point though. Economics is irrelevant in LOTR so the corrupting influence wealth doesn't make sense as the prime analogy. Do they even mention a unit of currency at any point? Also Morgoth did not make the balrags. Eru made the Maiar which Morgoth corrupted.

you have to be 18 to post on this board

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I'm aware Morgoth corrupted the Maiar to Balrogs. This still has nothing to do with men though and the promise of power through jewels(rings).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see the concept of wealth as applicable to Lord of the Rings; but to each his own.

Like most other genocidal mass murderers, Sauron genuinely and devoutly believed his motivation was a pure and beautiful devotion to allmighty God, whom he knew as Eru Ilúvatar.
His love of God expressed itself in ever more zealous attempts to impose perfect Order upon Middle-earth with the intention of reshaping it into his conception of God's plan, as expressed in the Great Music of the Ainur.
From Sauron's point of view, the mountain of mangled corpses upon which he trod was a glittering staircase which he climbed to reach a closer, more intimate communion with his God, Eru Ilúvatar.

The Maia Gorthaur (Sindarin: "Dreadful") the Cruel, who was also called at various times Aulendil (Quenya: "Devotee of Aulë"), Annatar (Sindarin: "Lord of Gifts") and Artano (Sindarin: "High Smith"), is best known to us as Sauron (Sindarin: "The Abhorred").
Although Sauron began as a vassal of Aulë, from whom he gained tremendous skill in craft, he soon changed his allegiance to the most powerful Vala who ever lived: Melkor. Following his conversion of allegiance Sauron's long life path followed a remarkably similar trajectory as that of his second patron. As Tolkien put it: “... in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.”

The source of Melkor's and Sauron's religious belief was the actual, divine command of their God: Eru Ilúvatar. In the depths of time he commanded the Ainur (Valar and Maiar) spirits to perform a sacred task: “Then Ilúvatar said to them: ‘Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will.”

I don't want to be an asshole but how do you not see it? A ring that gives you control over an "empire"? A ring would presumably promise you fortune and favor.. but at a cost. You sell your soul to the dark lord to reign over an empire of dust.

And the Ainur did create a Great Music which made corporeal the thought of Eru Ilúvatar. And the world of Arda -- of which Middle-earth was to become a small but important corner -- came to be, made substantive and real by the voices of the Ainur.
The loudest, most powerful and seductive voice of all that mighty chorus was Melkor. Little wonder that so many spirits great and small, of whom Sauron proved to be the strongest, were drawn into Melkor's service and grew to see Eru Ilúvatar's plan for Arda through the perspective of Melkor's doctrine.

And then Eru Ilúvatar spoke the most terrible words ever uttered within Eä, which would prove the source of unimaginable suffering and grief for millions of sentient beings who would come to live within Arda: “... no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. ... And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.”

This was the awful, rotten truth at the heart of Eä, the justification for every brutal act of Melkor, Sauron, the Witch-king of Angmar and every other misguided spirit within Arda.
You see, Sauron never thought of himself as evil. In his own twisted, psychotic and sociopathic mind, first Melkor and then he himself were the chosen vehicles of Eru Ilúvatar's divine will. Hadn't God said exactly that?: "... he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument ..."

Because Melkor and Sauron were on a holy mission, any act, no matter how extreme, in Eru Ilúvatar's service was justified -- in fact required.

Neither,he represented the eternal Anglo.

In Sauron's conception of the world, the elves and Edain were apostates who were not even present during the Great Music. He believed they misunderstood, and indeed belligerantly defied, the will of God Himself. Their ignorant and willful apostacy of God merited torture and death. And when Sauron brought about their deaths -- by the tens of thousands -- he rejoiced in his ability to serve divine justice upon the unbelievers.

It is a sad truth that no one in Middle-earth ever thinks of themselves as evil, no matter how many innocents have died at their hands.

I get what what you're seeing. I just disagree. You can make the case that the ring symbolizes wealth and its corrupting influence easily enough. But corruption existed prior to wealth in both the LoTR universe and in Tolkien's worldview. In all honestly I dismiss almost anything that uses wealth or economic factors as primary motivator of man out of hand. Money/wealth are illusory.

How can you simply dismiss it though? It's tied to man's nature even in lotr. The Númenóreans reached to far and were punished. So they were stuck in the shit like the rest of us. Obviously wealth matters.. you need it to raise and feed troops. Wearing a ring given by Sauron would give one the false confidence to raise an empire.. while under the corrupting influence of the ring.

Because no one actually wants "wealth". They want the things wealth can provide. Stability, comfort, power, and whatever. But these things can all be achieved without wealth which makes wealth an unnecessary addition to a character/person's motivation.
>Wearing a ring given by Sauron would give one the false confidence to raise an empire.. while under the corrupting influence of the ring.
We're the 9 given to men given to already powerful kings? To my knowledge the only races to show a lust for pure wealth were dragons and dwarves to a lesser extent.

" And nine, nine rings were gifted to the race of men, who above all else desire power." power through any means necessary.

the consoomers he's bascially like corona

>who above all else desire power
Did I win yet?

Gnosticshits are fucking tards. Read your stupid texts Melkor and Sauron are nothing like the Demiurge.

For me, it's industrial revolution:
>enslave small people
>cuts down trees
>damages the very core of living beings

No? The kings became wraiths in their chase for power. It doesn't nullify my initial point. Their greed consumed them and they became dependent on an object(a ring) to give them power until it destroyed them.

That's all well and good. Greed is still not a true indicator of desire. Wealth is a variable. It doesn't hold any intrinsic value.

they are same, nazi leaders was noble secret jews and hitler was truly jew himself who hated own people.

Omg dude. Obviously the leaders of men who got the rings turned because of greed initially. Once they became wraiths they were completely under his control. Sauron gave the rings to men with the intent to turn them to his will.

>greed initially
Greed for what?

Jew

To rule and govern it's not like this is an untouched notion even in the lotr universe,

Both obviously

>To rule and govern
So order. Did I win yet?

The Antichrist. He literally played that role during his corruption of the Numenoreans. He turned them from the worship of God and to the worship of Satan complete with blood sacrifices of everyone who did not adhere to the new faith. And then God punished him for it.
Sauron was never a big-bad, he was always a servant of a bigger evil that he just happened to become the most powerful representation of in the second and third age. And in the end he got destroyed by Divine Intervention (IE, when Gollum slipped off the edge).

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>Appeared to the elves as an angel of light bearing gifts

It's the most obvious reference to Satan you could make.

based take
i knew sauron wanted to set the world to order, but i never thought about him as believing he was fulfilling a divine mission

Ya but whos the benevolent king?

Do the Valar and company even have true agency?

I don't follow.

The prophesied king to end it all and restore order lad.

no dumby dumb dumb, profit is money left over after paying all your taxes. Now some assholes try and avoid paying taxes to make their gross income the same as their profit, but we just need to stab them in the face 1 or 100 times.

I dunno that one. I'm a second music end of day guy.

The Ottoman empire occupying Europe. There's a reason why they were occupying Europe for 400 years. LOTR explains why.

Otto Von Bismarck.

Melkor wasn't the "chosen vehicle" of Eru. He simply committed heinous acts that accidentally beautified the world down the line. I.E. destroying the great lamps, causing the first apocalypse for whatever life lived within, yet creating a much more interesting continent down the line. Raising up giant mountains for the purposes of dividing life and the children of Eru, yet creating something viewed as beautiful by the children themselves. The only thing Eru truly despises, and the one thing that doesn't really help life later on, is Melkor's torture and mutliation of the elves to turn into orcs. It's probably the only time Melkor achieves some sort of victory over Eru

They do. Some go native, neutral to both the Ainur of Eru and the servants of Melkor. And for Eru, that' s perfectly fine. It'd be boring if everyone was his servant or a slave of Melkor.

My understanding of the Valar is they are essentially the personification concepts like justice, growth, movement and whatever. Do you really have free well when your character is defined as "arises from power"? Your nature is limited by your creator.

The valar have free will, they're just very "alien" about it. They don't need to eat, they can slow down time for themselves to ponder the next step they take in whatever they're doing. they can shapeshift. But it is their choice to participate in Eru's theme or not. Melkor didn't simply choose not, which is fine with Eru. He actively decided to try and destroy everything that arose from the theme

>their choice to participate in Eru's theme or not
This is a good point. I'm sold.

no