What's the key to make a good twist villain?
What's the key to make a good twist villain?
Nicholas Hall
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Christopher Anderson
Don't change them into the villain at the last moment because the story needs an antagonist and you don't want to make one of the main characters look bad.
Benjamin Smith
Are you really gonna tell me Hans works better narratively as Anna’s fuckbuddy?
Robert Morris
Wait ten years for it to stop being cliche.
Kayden Myers
One word motive.
It has to be obvious when you think about it but easily overlooked.
Jaxson Davis
Having them in a position of trust or authority.
Leo Cox
If Elsa had been the villain like the first half of the movie was setting up it might have actually been good
Joshua James
This. I think Wreck-it-Ralph did it best with King Candy, because he was already set up as an antagonist before the big twist.
Jordan Martinez
It's a different kind of twist. He's the antagonist but you don't take him seriously until it's too late
Joseph Evans
They have motivation to turn and you understand their reasoning for it. It's better to escalate a villain than to make an audience "piece it together" last second because the eureka moment is only holds weight during the first watch. Dramatic irony works because it applies any time the story is told, and seeing a "twist" develop is actually satisfying. But now Disney/Pixar is more surprised oriented twist because low iq people and children react have more reason to react to that despite it being in every fucking movie now. Literally boiled down to second degree character X that has 1/5 screen time is the villain every time now.
Hans only passes because his motivation is a political/imperial kind so being under the table is excusable. Ultimately he didn't even need to be in the movie at all.
Carter Long
You know what's funny?
He was already planned to be the antagonist from the beginning.
Carter Lewis
Nu uh
Nicholas Ward
throwing in something unpredictable.
Wreck-it Ralph for example did it well because you kinda knew who the antagonist was, but you had no idea of his true intentions in the slightest.
But take Bellweather from Zootopia, right off the bad from the first poster and description of her being the hard-working secretary to a mayor lion, people on Yas Forums knew right off the bat she was going to be the villain. (doesn't help that in the middle of the movie itsself, the animals making the stuff driving carnivores mad were a bunch of sheep.)
Pixar is up/down in terms of a twist villains. Stinky Pete and Waternoose were good villains, because you didn't think nothing of them until the time came, but Lotso off the bat came off as the villain as soon as he sent the other toys to the caterpillar room and you saw the shit that went down.
Luke Scott
>But take Bellweather from Zootopia, right off the bad from the first poster and description of her being the hard-working secretary to a mayor lion, people on Yas Forums knew right off the bat she was going to be the villain. (doesn't help that in the middle of the movie itsself, the animals making the stuff driving carnivores mad were a bunch of sheep.)
I knew she was going to be the villain, I just didn't expect her to turn into a 2 dimensional extremely cliche le evil villain straight up contradicting her whole character.
Noah Clark
>Name your character "Evelyn Deavor."
I get its a punny name for a villain, but jesus, way to spoil it right away.
Adrian Cook
That is actually a lie and nothing the online shills can say will make this true.
He isn't a twist villian, he's a villian that was pulled out of their ass at the last second to handwaive how objectively evil and wrong elsa and the basic idea behind the movie is.
Leo King
Establish a believable motivation. That doesn't mean give the entire movie away, but put just enough hints so it makes sense on a second viewing.
Hint at some plot points that the villain is pulling the strings, but do it subtly or in a way that doesn't give the characters and the viewers the time to actually think about it.
In general, a twist villain is successful if they feel surprising initially, but on a second viewing, it is actually painfully obvious.
Easton Hernandez
*the entire motive away
Fuck
Lucas Gomez
I agree.
Anthony Nguyen
Make it something that, as you rewatch the movie, makes sense with what the character would naturally want instead of doing it for the sake of plot conflict.
Stinky Pete made sense since he always wanted Woody and Jessie to be in a museum, he just got more extreme as they got more stubborn about leaving.
Hans is a bad example since there's barely any foreshadowing, he's such a one-dimensional, uninteresting evil character that is just there to be the villain they defeat.
Charles Smith
King Candy's twist is great because it's really obvious in hindsight but they play sleight-of-hand with the clues to keep the audience in the dark.
Colton Foster
I still like he ended up actually enjoying being a loved toy to the little girl after the movie according to canon material. Also being the only dude with a bunch of hot Barbies probably helped.
Eli Torres
I recently saw an old storyboard in which he seems to be glaring at Woody playing with Jessie and Bullseye on the record player; seems like he was a more obvious kind of antagonist at some point
Luke Reyes
There's lots of ways to make a twist villain work, it mostly depends on the context of the story that you're telling. But generally, there are three basic steps for good Twist Villains (and Plot Subversions in general).
>Step 1: There has to be a set up of some kind. It's better if it's something audiences may not catch upon the first viewing. This brings them back to see if there were hints that they missed.
>Step 2: There has to be some reason within the narrative for the twist
>Step 3: The villain after the twist has to be just as engaging as the villain before the twist
Pic related gets those first two steps down well (Step #2 especially), but it completely fails in Step #3. You absolutely cannot set up Ben Kingsley as an overwhelming but distant enemy with a plan to which the hero feels as an afterthought, and replace him with Guy Pierce in a douchebag haircut with a motivation of getting stood up by Tony when he was drunk.
The Mandarin twist fails not because it was inherently bad, but because they actually had was such an utter letdown in comparison to the villain they had set up.
Hopefully Shang-Chi fixes this.
Joseph Anderson
While Yokai was not a twist villain, I liked how his reveal was handled.
Landon Carter
It seems like a lot of people, including me, thought he would be Tadashi when revealed. It wouldn’t make any sense but I wonder why so many people thought that.
Aiden Morales
Yokai was a mystery villain so when his identity was revealed it would have to be somebody we already met.
This leaves us with three candidates: Alistair Krei, Tadashi, and Callaghan.
Krei is a blatantly obvious red herring and can be dismissed off the bat. (Also, for those paying attention, his nose is far too big to fit behind the mask.)
This leaves us with either Tadashi or Callaghan as having survived the fire. We know practically nothing about Callaghan, but from what we do know about Tadashi him being Yokai fits nothing about his character. Then again, Callaghan was such a nonentity beforehand that it's not surprising you and others came to the wrong conclusion.
Jason Cooper
He works better as a dick than as a villain. Pretending to love Anna and trying to influence her into abandoning Elsa in her time of need is more interesting than "okay now I kill"
Ethan Walker
I think it might be impossible after its been done to death, which is more of a timing thing not just a writing thing.
Michael Anderson
Why couldnt Elsa be an antagonist and at odds with Anna without being a villian?
Nolan Nguyen
Not a big Frozen fan but I had him figured as a secret villain right from his first song:
>youtu.be
It gives little hints of him being a twist villain like how he starts singing about the "PLACE" while Ana is singing about HIM. It's obvious they were trying to put some foreshadowing but still try to keep it somewhat a surprise.
The problem is it's not much of a surprise if you're someone with pattern recognition and realize Disney does it with near every new movie. The biggest "twist" I can recall in recent years was watching Inside Out and realizing Bing Bong WASN'T the twist villain (and the movie itself didn't really have one).
Owen Johnson
But he also saves the citizens of the kingdom and he even saves Elsa from dying only to try to execute her five minutes later anyway. He doesn’t make much sense as a villain.