What are your thoughts on representation?

If it's good who cares.

The best people are the ones demanding more diversity in a cast that does not even contain humans.
Just because there is a baseline for these purple space aliens, that does not mean they represent white people!
The fuck is wrong with you?!

The only time I made a character to be a specific race within the US context is for my group's current Delta Green campaign.
Because I made the WHITEST character I possibly could.
It's Josh Fuller from Burlington, Vermont. He's a bicycling boy scout working as a forensic lab tech for the USPIS. He speaks ten mostly dead languages with a bad accent and his favorite hobby is to falsify Gnostic religious texts in various languages to then bury in people's gardens just to see if he can make a cult.

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Sometimes is good. Sometimes is bad.

Black Twitter and white women twitter are annoying as fuck with it though.

This kinda fails at its own point desu. He's giving single mothers, aspiring artists and "ghost lovers" representation. Representation isn't just about the color of your skin and what funny bits are between your legs (or what you do with them).

>black twitter and white women twitter

These people can fuck right off. If you want to grow racist and misoginistic, just go read these mother fuckers. Fucking hell.

representation is like being a nice person, if your trying to do it your doing it wrong.

This.

I think Yas Forums is the worst place to ask that question.

No, man.
If you want to hate, read Twitter.

If you're trying to be a nice person because you dont lie being an asshole it's still right. If you're trying to be a nice person just for ulterior gain then you're doing it wrong.
Not that this metaphor is really fitting.

Eh, the porn tags are pretty chill.

>What are your thoughts on representation?
"Make your own comics, faggot" essentially

Good thing we can scrap a few dozen diversity literally who's alongside hundreds of legitimate white characters and cultural touchstones

Not the other guy but are you fucking dim

That's because everyone wants to fuck everyone.
Black twitter is super toxic and full circlejerking racist bullshit in which everyone if to blame for their failures but themselves. Always the victim, everything is a scheme made up to hurt blacks. It's fucking embarrasind and infurating.

White twitter is dominated by white women who hate everyone and everything that isn't themselves and demand people to offer them tribute for having tits.

Avoid those twitters that are full of only one ethnicity and you find pretty good threads. If you can stop yourself from taking the bait. Otherwise, avoid the whole webpage like it's the damn Coronavirus. It's fucking worse than Yas Forums.

>That's because everyone wants to fuck everyone in those.
Japan was right. There's unity through dick.

I think the point of the comic is that the representation part is not the focal point of the works. Single mothers are represented in the comic, yes, but the character is not a representation for single mothers

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Good all else equal. Writers can focus on it to the detriment of story, though personally I think that effect's overstated and often is a scapegoat for just overall bad writing.

How would you rename "black-coded"?

I want to marry Ana

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>What are your thoughts on representation?

It's like a character having your name or a similar outfit. It's a neat little bonus but shouldn't be a goal of production.

No, the point is people relate to people who in theory don't represent them. And it utterly fails at making that point by having 3 people rlike characters because they relate to an aspect of their life that they share.

When it comes to representation, its about making different races, cultures and positions normalized for the general public. We live in a diverse society yet we base our understanding of people on what we see in the media growing up, because that's where we pay attention the most.

For instance, if you constantly see white as the default in media, you're not going to be aware of different asects of let's say...black people, because while they are in your daily life, you may not interact with them much because they are different. Now let's say we do add black people but they are only made out to be criminals, gangsters and violent. Even though it's fiction, people will internalize that perspective. This actually happens in Asian countries where their view of black people is based on the sterotypes they see in movies so they expect them to all be hood rats. The reverse is the same as well. Black kids growing up see other black people as criminals and hoodlums and so, either believe that they should be too or that there is something wrong with them if they are not. It's not until we all become full adults and actual talk with people different from us to learn about them, but in a lot of cases, especially those that stay away from people in general or only exposed to people like themselves where they live, they have a higher chance of growing up believing the stereotypes they see.

This is not just for race, but men and women. The way most of Yas Forums and reddit talks about stacies and chads are all based on cliches you all saw in high school movies and shows growing up. It doesn't help that social media continues to project these cliches as well when in fact, people generally are not like this. You only focus on the very attractive or the very ugly and forget that the normal in-between is what's really the majority.

That all said, the way representation is pushed by a lot of folks is garbage as they try to gain points or sympathy for it instead of just being normal.

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Why do Dee threads seem to be one of few threads that have civil discussion without sexual or racial discourse?

I've personally always seen it as the opposite, the popular cartoon media reflects the people.
Is there any real basis that these prejudice assumptions would go away if things were different in shows? Outside of just assuming that the theory is true?

As well definitely agree with the final point, it feels like its just Ancaps trying to pat themselves on the back while chasing dollar signs far too often.
Things have gotten a tad better recently though.

>Representation is good.
In what way? No one has ever explained this in any way that isn't "Spiderman needs to be black to be relevant to black kids."

If the goal is to represent people, then why would the focus be on their race rather than , you know, who they are as people? Why does literally everyone, of all races, love Spiderverse and its conspicuously black lead but hate Snowflake and Safe Space? Wouldn't, if the theory holds, "representation" make both of them popular?

If not, why not?

yeah that what I basically meant.

cause the creator himself isn't proactive in sexual or racial discourse in his works and just makes cartoons to make others smile.

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>For instance, if you constantly see white as the default in media
That's a bit of a cop out. Indians don't see Indians as the "default" (loaded term, by the by) because of Bollywood. They see Indians as the default because they're surrounded by Indians. Their consumption of media doesn't necessarily influence their worldview.

Same with white Americans. And that doesn't even touch on what "white" even means in the context of the United States versus, say, England or France. The Greek kid in my elementary school was "white" to literally everyone else. Name a Greek cartoon character that isn't "Hercules but an American high school student." I'm German; can't say there are very many positive German cartoon characters in popular media, but again I'm only "white" by the standards of the American media.

Point is, dude, this shit affects everyone, not just whoever you want to be "white" this week and "black" the next. The goal is to widen the net, force nothing, and allow people their own characters and spaces.

A black Spiderman allows for topics that, while can resonate with anyone if written well enough, can have a certain nuance that can only be understood as a black person that brings a new level of realism to the character. But the problem with just one black Spiderman is that they couldn't represent all black people and that's the problem with a token black diversity character.

What about Miles Morales can only be "understood" by a black person? If I think this line of reasoning is going where it usually does, you can't make this claim unless you yourself are black-Puerto-Rican mixed.

>what about miles can only be understood by a black person
That his entire existence is predicated on the destruction of a well meaning white guy

>What are your thoughts on representation?

It's ironically racist,sexist,ect.
>everyone is supposedly equal
>this implies that everyone is completely interchangeable on all subject matters, like life experiences,economic class/struggles,social/legal struggles,ect.
>this also implies everyone can just "identify" with any character despite skin color,sex,ect.

Based on my past experiences in school. The media plays a role but home and schooling has a far bigger impact. For many blacks who come from a disadvantaged or shit home/school, sports and music is seen as the only way to escape poverty. When that fails or along the way they get lured into crime for reasons that go well beyond Yas Forums and more into society itself. There are just so many other areas to fix that black/brown Yas Forums chars are bottom of the list in terms of what to worry about.

Make new characters instead of changing old characters for representation

Representation is not a reason to like a character, it's a concept that mainly describes the media landscape.
If you are part of a group that is a sizeable minority in your country, a lack of this group in your country's media could be alienating.
It means effectively you have an exclusionary majority culture because if 10-20% of the population are just made to disappear from the reality shown on TV, you necessarily exclude them systematically.
Also you create a dissonance between reality as people see it in their lives and the reality shown on TV, alienating parts of your audience.

Race is often a point fought over because it is extremely visible and seen as important.

As such what is important is not so much your one black spider guy, but that black people are shown in media as a whole.
And naturally there are ways to do it badly, cynically or for the wrong reasons. Badly in that you have a caricature or a character that does not fit into your concept. Cynically in that you have tacked-on tokens. For the wrong reasons in that you try to make a character represent something instead of making a good character that passively generates visibility for a group.

Imagine you have a media landscape that has no representation of men at all. They just don't happen on your screen.
That would be a pretty strange and lopsided reality you would present.

You can't really excuse one injustice with more injustice, though.
Shooting you in the face doesn't make stealing your wallet not a crime.
Sure, the US is a complete fucking mess that exploits and disenfranchises the lower classes of all races to an unconscionable degree.
And Hollywood publicly patting itself on the back for not being quite as racist as it used to be is a farce.
But thinking about who gets cast for what role a bit more and trying to move away from stereotyping are still laudable steps.

It's a weaselword, or at very least used as one 99% of the time.

It's bad, fiction should be segregated.

Yeah!
I want my media to be only straight white guys my age who live no further than 50 miles from my doorstep!

More than 50 miles is fun but yes to the other stuff.

Of course, but the topic was regarding representation in media in particular. I didn't like watching black staring movies and shows as a kid growing up because most of it was negative, and I wasn't into that. Yet my family teased me for not having seen Baby Boy or other "hood" movies. They're inspired by those type of movies because it has black people in it, and those movies and shows has them either being powerful or victims and...that's almost always it. It has an affect, not a heavy one such as financial situations, but it is there nonetheless. My family is very "suburban family" black and yet they try to emulute the gangster sterotype they see in tv.
I wish it were a cop out but I see its affects on people online and irl. Look at any media that actually does have a main character who isn't black or an interracial main family. One of the first things pointed out is the race and agenda instead of just seeing characters. Kids and zoomers dont think about this as much these days BECAUSE there's different varieties of people in shows but the older folks and *some* Gen Y'ers having grown up on mostly white media wrinkle thier faces at seeing other races and wondering where the "default" is.

Also you missed the point where I said black and white are an example. It's not the only case, you can say the same with gender, religions, cultures, etc.
It can be a mix, but yes some of these things can go away if there is more representation. Not all of course but see my point above. If we stop glorifying gangster culture, you're going to have less people wanting to follow it. Again, in talking about those that are not in property where its their only choice but those that grew up with plenty of opertunties to be something get want to be a hoodrat becahse its cool. Think wiggers and even some black folks like my own family members who have never set foot in a ghetto yet act like they did.

It is good, but in your example, I agree to a point. There's not much reason to turn an existing IP into a black person or woman or fat, instead they should just make thier own. Problem is, and this goes for anything regardless of race, new IPs are hard to sell these days. It's easier to use an existing one, hence all the remakes we have now too. That's more a problem with people in general attaching to familiar things instead of exploring new territory. Other than that, representation is good because see my other post here

>Look at any media that actually does have a main character who isn't black or an interracial main family. One of the first things pointed out is the race and agenda instead of just seeing characters

Because, and I know you'll disagree, the majority are agenda-driven.

I absolutely agree on glorifying gangster culture, its really hardly a culture.
It was developed to cope with systematic racism and has become a crab bucket cesspool that they hold pride in for some god forsaken reason.
At least in general, it does have some merit but the base principals seem to be nothing but self defeating.

>I wish it were a cop out but I see its affects on people online and irl
It is a cop out. Unless you're going to blame Chinese media for Chinese people growing up around other Chinese people, or Russian media for Russian people growing up around other Russian people. Media reflects society, not the other way around.

If your example is that the first thing in shows to be pointed out is race, you're ignoring the context of that pointing out, which is 99% of the time from "advocates" who have to absolutely hype it up to be the greatest fucking thing on planet Earth. The criticism is never that a black family is being seen, it's that the machinery surrounding black media extols the racial makeup of the show to a degree that all else falls to the wayside.

And generally, if you have to go back two to three generations to make your point, your point isn't really relevant.

Ironically, their own twitters show why diversity is good and necessary for society way better than the crap they endorse and peddle. They are right, but not for the reasons they think.

>I agree to a point
Which point? You ignored the point and rambled on about "making new things."

I'll ask again: why is Spiderverse, with its conspicuous black lead, universally loved by comic book fans of all races while Safe Space and Snowflake, both conspicuously black leads, are universally derided and mocked by comic book fans of all races?

Where does "representation" enter into either character, and how is one a positive example while the other a negative?

You're not wrong, there are a lot of agenda driven shit out there. But think about the reason why it's such an agenda. It's because the dislike for it came first. All the way back to the days of actual blackface and racist stereotypes played by white actors. When views from the other side are displayed and played by people of that race, gender, or whatever, people frown because they're not used to it and feel attacked and bite back. Then the other side bites back mkre aggressively and now you have people pushing for representation for the wrong reasons while the other side hating all represtation because of it. There are works out there that has multi-racial characters that are doing it just for the love of their work, yet will be called out for being political when they are not trying to be. The best thing to do is not act negatively or positively over it, just be neutral. Focus on the work itself and not the race or gender and eventually, (many decades from now) it will be normal enough to where no one cares. The agenda pushing side will no longer have a soap box.

Diversity is absolutely fine, and I genuinely have no issue with it. It's usually only when these traits are spelled out in a story that has no relevancy to them that it's outputting (let's say a story about monster fighting suddenly has the character talk about being gay for no particular reason that doesn't effect the material or add to their character growth). Most of these complaints are just applicable to any bad writing though. The character talking about having red hair or banging a chick would be dumb if it's not relevant in any fashion.

People who relate to a character based purely on their race are probably shallow people. There's a reason why Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a story about mostly-Chinese (Lu Bu is probably Mongolian/Xiongnu) is popular all across east asia and gaining popularity in the West, or why Le Morte de Arthur and other Arthurian/Matter of Britain stories are popular in countries like France and Japan. People can relate to the stories of big dick heroes or normal people going about their lives. If you specifically need Keith Whitebread to be your guy because you're white and you only relate to whites doing 'white things' you probably don't have much to you as a person. I suppose you can argue in favor of gendered representation because women have some different stuff going on than men, but for the most part people tend to empathize across thousands of years and thousands of miles with human stories.

Based reasonable post.

A lot of the time attempts to appeal to the pc crowd are just embarrassing or transparently twofaced, but I’m not opposed to nonwhites being on tv like a spergy weirdo.

>Why it's an agenda
Because black people with an axe to grind want to hate on white people. Same as it always was.

But the rest of your post spells out my point: representation is fundamentally a racist preoccupation that would be better off ignored.

It alright

>Majority culture is ebul because they like seeing members of their own culture
It'd be odd if this didn't apply equally in the other direction.

It seems you're admitting that "representation" has little to do with parity and more to do with in-group preference, in which case it doesn't really matter who the majority or minority culture is, since they'll gravitate to their own regardless.

Now make an argument that a majority culture has a responsibility to make a minority culture visible and we'll have something interesting. But right now you're not saying anything important - blacks like blacks, whites like whites. Natural, normal, nothing to see here.

>Imagine you have a media landscape that has no representation of men at all. They just don't happen on your screen.
I'd likely do what literally everyone else does, did, and will continue to do - tell stories with my friends. Why should I care what's on my TV?

I was indifferent to a diverse cast before, but now that non-white, non-heterosexual characters have been universally declared the harbingers of a very particular side of the political compass I no longer support them.

>b-but tolerance

You started the identity politics war, not me. I'm just picking the side that actually benefits me as a straight white male.

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But america isn't all one race like chinese and Russians. Media goes both ways because media is created by people with their own views and perspectives that is based on both their own lives and media THEY have grown up with. It's a cycle in that regard.

For you second paragraph, see As for going back generations, it is relavant because it explains why things are the way they are today. What I'm getting at is because of all this representation, even the dumb agenda shit, it still has a positive impact on the people going forward. You have less racist people in our generation (Gen Y) than the previous ones partially because we grew up with burger king kids tier cartoons and Nickelodeon/Disney lives action shows that had one of each race as thier main characters vs our granparents growing up with the Andy Griffin Show and Leave it to Beaver which were mostly all white. Gen Alpha is going to be even more accepting because of the representation and so on if we keep this pattern up.

I said Miles would allow for these kinds of discussion, simply making a black character does mean you as a non black person can't see yourself in him. And it doesn't mean a black latino would necessarily see themselves in Miles. But from a writer's perspective it let's you dive into themes that would be played out for any other superhero comic, but can be given deeper context and perspective.

I don't like whites, media without them in it is automatically better

You have said nothing of substance. What "deeper context and perspective" is revealed with Miles than wasn't present elsewhere? Please keep your answer to black latinos only, that's the only way this conversation is designed to work.