Catchy thread name, no? But in all seriousness, there is a divide between the fandoms to what Pamela Isley should be. There are those who want the character to remain a villain, a seductress who is mother nature's wrath personified and values plant life over humans, while there are others who believe she should be a misunderstood anti-hero looking out for the well-being of the planet. That's not even accounting the demand to ship her with Harley Quinn, which is a whole other discussion entirely that ties with her character. Then there's the issue of escalation, which is a direct result of Batman's abilities getting more ridiculous over the past few years. Remember, Ivy was merely a chemist with mutant plants at her beck and call, now she's practically just below Swamp Thing in terms of flora control.
Personally I think Poison Ivy is best suited as a villain, and has far more storytelling potential as one. The Harley shipping kind of waters down both characters, and doesn't really lead anywhere in terms of narrative.
But what are your personal opinions of Poison Ivy? At this point I think the only way to make everyone happy is to split the character into two separate beings; Ivy being the human chemist and hero, and Poison Ivy being the plant mutant seeking to rid the world of mankind.
I want her to go back to being an ecoterrorist with a degree in biochemistry and not bride of the Swamp Thing.
Jonathan Phillips
I think that most batman villains now fit into categories that relegate them to certain roles. >Mastermind >Muscle >Minion All above are pretty self explanatory, with characters like Joker or Bane fitting neatly into Mastermind, people like croc or grundy in muscle, and people like scarecrow in minion. I have my own problems with these characters but I digress, Ivy doesn't really fit into any of these, because depending on the writer, she could be all three. She doesn't really have a strong characterization apart from 'seductress' that's well maintained throughout most of her appearances, which leads to writers not really knowing how to place her. I think ultimately she does work best as a villain, but she really needs some new stories to really flesh her out.
Xavier Wood
Personally, I think you talk like a fag and probably eat your own poop and pee
Michael Flores
The main problem with Pamela is that her views become more understandable as time marches on. What was once the female Mr. Freeze - a well intentioned, but ultimately destructive, character - is only growing more and more justified by the day. When you've got figures like 100 companies create 70% of CO2. Pamela's mission to kill of all humans seems negligible. Humans could kill themselves with or without her help. Splitting the character is dumb, however. Poison Ivy is already the hero in her own story. All you would do would make her morals more palpable to you.
Charles Torres
I think she could work well as a mastermind. All things considered, Ivy is THE Batman female villain (Catwoman doesn't count). But that's where you're wrong, she's ultimately not right. She's an extremist most "fans" want to rewrite to fit their Green ideology. That's like me saying Thanos is a good guy for culling most of the universe due to a cosmic imbalance. A good villain can be a warped sense of right, which would apply to Ivy. She doesn't just want Earth to be healed from man made pollution, she wants genocide with her sitting pretty as queen of her own utopia, which would cause a serious imbalance between The Red and The Green. Even Swamp Thing knows the importance of human life, hence why a human is chosen to be the guardian.
But my main point is that you can understand what drives a villain, but not condone it. A lot of villains think they're the hero of their own story.
Poison ivy is a misanthrope with a huge hatred of mankind and its destructive ways. She is a villain. I personally think the more recent iterations of her being an anti hero is because of politics of the writers rather than well crafted story telling.
Just make her a dsmned villain that's interesting, not the straight man schtick to harley (where a lot of this problem writing is coming from).
Joshua Sanders
I don't know why they find it so hard to write the plant lady who hates humanity because of pollution, climate change is a way bigger hot button issue now adays than when she was created, but comic writers are retards so not surprising.
Joseph Moore
Maybe combine both and re-imagine her as Jekyll and Hyde type. She's a scientist, so tweak her origin to match. Keep the well meaning chemist aspect one one side, and the plant controlling villain on the other.
Justin Wright
Because being eco-friendly is a fad, sad to say. It's basically writers trying to cater to the demographic, and rewrite a villain with sex appeal so they can market a damn Captain Planet. That's literally the only reason why they push Ivy instead of Swamp Thing; you can't jerk off to Alec Holland. Then she's just Plant Hulk at that point and a flip flopping mess kind of like how Harley is sold as both hero and villain
>There are those who want the character to remain a villain, a seductress who is mother nature's wrath personified and values plant life over humans, while there are others who believe she should be a misunderstood anti-hero looking out for the well-being of the planet. I honestly don't see why she can't be both. Antiheroes are not necessarily good guys - they are any character that is the protagonist of a story while also lacking classical heroic traits (bravery, idealism, selflessness, etc). And a character can both be misunderstood and ultimately wrong. Those two things don't form a total dichotomy, they're not intrinsically opposed.
but isn't the whole point to make her a strawman for environmentalists? Its easy to criticize extremists when you frame their ideology in such a ridiculously one sided narrative. And nobody really wants to ship Ivy and Harley, what people appreciate about their relationship is their strong female friendship.
Colton Lee
We don't need some played out reductive stereotype of a 'seductress', if you want a modern take on it you go with the evil thot who bilks simps out of their cold hard cash and uses men like they were disposable.
That or you go the 'crazy ex girlfriend' route with Harley. The whole concept of Ivy as this seductress who needs to be put in her place is so fucking misogynistic, its an idea so far rooted in the past that it borrows from the ancient Greeks.
Ask yourself this, if you were to encounter a modern day Siren, what would she look like? Cause I think she'd probably be vamping horny losers on the internet selling cups of her dirty bathwater for 10 bucks a pop.
Adrian Carter
I think this is true to an extent, but you have issues where Batman is full on beating her like a a 50's housewife cause it turns her on.. way too fucked up in my opinion.
Zachary Evans
pam should be mommy tier as fuck
but to everybody, not just harley, men, women, plants, she should be nurturing and trying to get the best out of people
harley/pam shippers are stupid, pam would be with anybody who suits her fancy at the time
well.. no, that doesn't really sound like her at all. Ivy is dangerous, violent, maladjusted. She doesn't like people and remains distant and aloof.
I get that the Harley cartoon is a bit over the top, but its a more modern, careful examination of Ivy's character, it makes her more relatable and less batshit insane.
Hudson Morris
a woman who seduces? what the fuck are you on about? i feel like i am about to get a pedantic lecture on the 'proper' use of the word..
Jacob Ross
user my point is that you essentially whined about her being a "old played out seductress" and yet asked for the exact same thing. Poison Ivy has always used her beauty and sexuality as a weapon. She brainwashes men, and sometimes women, to further her goals.
Ethan Allen
in her relationships not total strangers, obviously she hates humanity, but individuals she can nurture them, and maybe dispose of them after she has their use, but while using them for her own objectives she can be mommy
also all of batman's villains should be batshit insane, that's kind of the point, she talks to plants and is essentially an ecoterrorist
Carter Hughes
Poison Ivy suffers from the same kind of power scaling a lot of DC characters suffer from. She was sort of a femme fatale seductress who had a very strong affinity for plants. As her portrayals go on she gets more power and becomes sort of this plant manipulator. Which I still think works. But after a while they start giving her these ridiculous power gaps where she's like this kaiju level threat turning entire cities into warzones. She's kinda too powerful now and she doesn't feel down to earth. I guess it's a batman villain thing but I prefer Gotham villains to be less "supervillain" and just supernatural. Once she starts becoming this one woman army in terms of power she just becomes less interesting to me. I just want her to be a super scary plant manipulator who CAN create plant monsters but is only as strong enough to maybe fuck up a city block at most. That and I liked her femme fatale route that they never do anything with anymore.
I mean lets face it, EVERYBODY in Batman is insane, including Batman. In fact, he might be more crazy than any of them ever could be.
I think Batman has a bit of a problem in the way they depict mental illness, kind of similiar to the way early 18th century victorian doctors might see it.
We should really challenge those notions of the criminally insane, especially fringe cases where somebody is basically fucking eating people or something like that.. I mean, doesn't the death penalty make sense in some instances?
Ivy dissolving a CEO head in a vat of his own pesticides makes more sense when you learn that pesticide is responsible for thousands of deaths that could have easily been prevented..
Brody Walker
Poison Ivy is insane in the sense that she values plant life over human life, seeing more worth in a blade of grass than even the most good mannered person. That, and her lingering issues with men that originate from her own abusive father, who murdered her mother and buried her in the flowerbed
Brody Williams
From a normie perspective, they need to unchain her from Harley. She used to be serious and stuff, but once the gay meme was accepted she just became Harley's on and off girlfriend she always dumped when Joker's cock needs stroking. I mean, that asian bitch already had ivy/harley planned out for her crap movies
Adam Allen
you weren't really listening then, cause what i meant was that Ivy is definitely NOT one of those internet thots.
Shes not some high class call girl playing wicked games like that chick in Cruel Intentions, shes not some idle rich bitch toying with mens fortunes.. shes way too aloof and isolated for that.
Basically what DC has Ivy as now is someone who wears skimpy outfits with a plant motiff so she can garner mens attention, i guess cause her daddy didn't love her enough.
Her motivations are rationalized like they are with the joker, shes not an insane man in an insane world, shes a hopeless deviant that needs to constantly be roped back into to some semblance of sanity.
Its like if you presented the Joker outside of Gotham, if he grew up in a nice neighborhood with a white picket fence to a well adjusted family, it wouldn't make any sense.
Joseph Gray
I think you just envy the fact that they have a strong female bond that ISN'T explicitly sexual. Men would prefer she either lez out with Harley or they break up because it makes them uncomfortable being excluded from something they don't understand, something that doesn't fit into their 'bro code'.
Asher Campbell
>Her motivations are rationalized *aren't
Parker Cook
you only read my first sentence, you stupid cunt. Dilate harder next time
Carter Ortiz
I don't really know that much about her power wank, but this seems like a reasonable criticism. Whenever a character becomes too powerful, their character and personality tend to get overshadowed by their spectacle.
Owen Ward
Not him but what in the flying fuck are you talking about? Most people who are remotely familiar with the Dini characterization PREFERRED them as great friends, not the modern lesbian crap that has deluded both characters
Ayden Kelly
I think Harley and Ivy make a good duo. You don't often see something like Marvels Cloak and Dagger, especially not when it comes to villians.
Villians generally operate solo, hench, or hire a bunch of goons, they don't often pair up to commit heists because its rare to find a pair of personalities that bounce off each other.
Ryder Brown
hate to admit but that actually is my kink now
Logan Foster
well, then I agree.
I just think that you should be careful not to assume that just because they share a close bond that they are lesbians.
Evan Baker
i have no problem with them teaming up or just being friends, my problem is that whoever writes for both of them now will always dance around the subject. It turns from them being on the same level to Ivy simply being part of Harley's character.
Charles Anderson
Different guy, but this is a lie. It's youthful ignorance.
Before culture wars became a big deal, people loved the Harley/Ivy dynamic and were very much into the idea that they were lesbians. Back then it wasn't as fully acceptable to have gay characters all over the place so it didn't go full lez, but it was generally agreed that they were at least into casual sex with one another and that this was hot as all fuck. The vast majority of fans even wanted it confirmed back then.
Then, the great divide came, and you had to either be 100% onboard with every gay pair or 100% against every gay pair, no exceptions.
Joseph Allen
Ivy just needs to be freed from Harley, given a solo and a personality that doesn't revolve about being a doormat cuckquean. It's basically all she does these days, and I used to love the old dynamis years ago.
Landon Rogers
Ivy needs to call Harley out for her shitty behavior and maybe team up with someone else or pull some crazy heist/battle to prove to herself and the readers she is more than a doormat.
Elijah Torres
>Before culture wars became a big deal, people loved the Harley/Ivy dynamic and were very much into the idea that they were lesbians This is revisionist history and you fucking know it. At the time it was pretty much unanimous that the tragedy of Harley was that she would ALWAYS go back to The Joker. This was true in the DCAU, as Harley never left Joker, only moved on to start a family after he finally died at the hands of Tim Drake. Yes, we all know Harley fucked Ivy, but sex doesn't always mean a romantic relationship.
The reason why I don't like the pairing is because it's a characterization dead end for both of them. For Ivy it requires her entire history to be rewritten just so she doesn't want to cull mankind, and for Harley it reinforces the idea that her character is only worth something when paired with another character. I'm not saying it CAN'T be written well and organically, but all we've ever seen is low hanging shipper pandering nonsense that doesn't go anywhere
Sebastian Gomez
>femme fatale where is she taking her cues from, some 50's noir Lauren Bacall 'you know how to whistle don't you' type seductress?
you want to do retro you have to do 80's noir, where everything is more cynical, with sex and violence amped up to 11.
Josiah White
I think they should just be friends, like really good friends, who maybe experimented a little when they were younger but decided their friendship was more important than any romantic entanglements.
They make a good team, but the lesbian thing ruins it, it makes it all about fan service. Not to mention all the politics involved.
Hudson Hughes
>This is revisionist history and you fucking know it. At the time it was pretty much unanimous that the tragedy of Harley was that she would ALWAYS go back to The Joker. Nigga that wasn't even the case in the original BTAS show.
Owen Hall
>just so she doesn't want to cull mankind c'mon, Ivy's never pulled anything like Rashy Ghoul did with those genesis pit bombs. I think part of the tragedy of her character is that nobody can really be happy completely isolating themselves from other people, she desperately needs some sort of human companionship but is unwilling to divorce herself from her ecological obsession to reach out and open herself up emotionally to another human being.
So it would make sense that two misanthropes like her and Harley develop a sort of 'Thelma and Luise' attitude
Chase Thompson
CO2 is fucking meaningless. The real problem is HARP/weather manipulation, plastic, and 5g/4g towers causing this...pandemic.
Evan White
Buddy, it was, because I literally just told you what Harley did in that canon. >Ivy's never pulled that shit She's failed at it, so that makes it okay? Right because when I think misunderstood, I think of the woman who fed men to a giant pitcher plant where they met a slow and painful death to stomach juices.
Nathaniel Lopez
I mean, if you just need a token lesbian or some sort of lesbian representation in the DC universe, there is already plenty of low hanging fruit.
*Cough* Wonder Woman *Cough*
Jaxson Torres
>I think of the woman who fed men to a giant pitcher plant where they met a slow and painful death to stomach juices. Most of the people who wind up in the sights of one of Batmans rogues usually deserve it in some way or another. Gotham is a shitty place filled with shitty people.
Nathan Gray
part of selling a character, especially a villain, is making them relatable. If they are just punching bags and foils for the hero, their motivations don't feel genuine.
I mean ffs, darkside has more characterization than Ivy does, he gets more sympathy and fan wank than she does.
If you can make that asshole relatable, why can't Ivy be too?
Michael James
I think making Wonder Woman lesbian is a bad idea. It infers the idea that she could never love man or his world, and I think Wonder Woman is capable of loving everyone. Now you're just being stupid to try and argue Ivy never did anything wrong
Lucas Sanders
>relatable Incorrect. What makes a villain, or any character good, is understanding them, a well thought out motive with reasoning. When you say "relatable" you really mean "how can I self-insert into this character". I have no issues about making a character relatable, but you guys exploit that.
Jacob Williams
No, I'm just saying that people don't act in a vacuum. Even the craziest person has reasons for what they do.
I think using her personal life, background and family trauma is an excuse to dismiss her sometimes legitimate environmental agenda.
Of course she can be shown going overboard, going to extremes, but killing people because they step on a sunflower is full ham.
The point is, if she is smart, like she is supposed be, she wouldn't fixate on bizarre non-issues like people mowing their lawn or uprooting their flower bed.
I don't think it hurts to show that there is a more nuanced side to her madness.
Jace Thomas
>part of selling a character, especially a villain, is making them relatable
That's fucking stupid bullshit and a major reason why villians all fucking suck cock right now. That relatability is to make the bad guys in the eternal fucked up cops and robbers and murdered victims who don't matter because they aren't important/popular thing in western comics and much media sell.
>I think making Wonder Woman lesbian is a bad idea. It infers the idea that she could never love man or his world, and I think Wonder Woman is capable of loving everyone. She can't love man because she's a massive dyke who's been well groomed into eating pussy, and fisty fun, and bdsm. She's also incapable of understanding mans world, women's world(make no mistake the amazons are not women in a real sense)and comes from a monosexual society of invincible super strong oft immortal women who murder males for daring to step foot on their island. Even newborn baby males. Anyone who comes from that society and is raised in it and knows nothing of any other world or way of living is fundamentally incapable of being a good loving being.
The sooner they dump that failed as fuck marketing lie they are going for with her the sooner DC can get good female cape representation
Zachary Morales
bull. noody looks at an unsympathetic villian and thinks "what a great villian!" They just think, "What a dick!"
Landon Morales
>Buddy, it was, because I literally just told you what Harley did in that canon. In the BTAS continuity she leaves the Joker for good though.
Lincoln Cook
You're full of shit. I love Thawne and Black Manta because they're pieces of shit. I don't relate to them, I understand what they are. Only AFTER he died, and before that she was fine torturing a kid for weeks. Which I might add, she didn't go running back to Ivy afterwards.
c'mon, nobody wants a bland, generic villian with a poorly thought out motivation who's only purpose is to be a punching bag for the hero.
Even the most evil and ruthless villians have to at the very least be fun and entertaining to watch. likable, they just feel like carboard cutouts.
Angel Mitchell
In BTAS canon Joker is murdered by jason todd and she's thrown off a fucking cliff to her apparent death.
Evan Richardson
>That's fucking stupid bullshit and a major reason why villians all fucking suck cock right now. Shee "Joker" in Joker 2019. The Joker isn't fucking relatable.
Jacob Stewart
>She can't love man because she's a massive dyke who's been well groomed into eating pussy, and fisty fun, and bdsm. You don't read Wonder Woman A villain doesn't have to relatable or sympathetic to be entertaining you retard
Isaiah Russell
You relate to black manta BECAUSE hes a piece of shit, hes a complete psycho who has abandoned all moral pretense to commit revenge.
Haven't you ever hated someone so much that you felt like you'd do literally anything to get back at them? How is that not relatable?
Kevin Peterson
Don't give me that fucking bullshit. A good villain isn't defined by how likeable or relatable they are you utter fucking ape.
You are describing an antagonist. And the type of antagonist you want can not come from a being like Poison Ivy. It's fucked up to even try because you get people like you who are willing to normalize and handwaive brutal murder and objectively evil acts.
Jeremiah Lee
I feel like there should just be this sort of...allure to her. Like she's sexy, flirty, and enticing but in a scary way. Basically like a beautiful flower that is deadly poisonous. Honestly it's part of why I really like her red hair. Always strikes me as that sorta warning sign things in nature give off to tell you "don't fucking touch this". If it were me I'd probably boost her vibrant colors and make her look more unnerving.
>A good villain isn't defined by how likeable or relatable they are you utter fuckin It's all Joker (2019)'s fault. Now villains need to be literal heroes defending society.
Carson White
i didn't say sympathetic, i said relatable.
Like when OJ stabbed his wife and Chris Rock said, "I ain't saying its right, but I understand!" FFS, the chick was fucking his best friend behind his back in his own house.
Jackson Foster
What are you even fucking arguing? Did you read a portion of my post and just green text something before replying?
>You don't read Wonder Woman I have. And nothing in my post is incorrect. What people like you claim she is and should be has absolutely nothing to do with her origin. Her origin and who this character is portrayed as, is logically motherfucking retarded.
Jose Martin
I don’t relate to Black Manta you retard. He’s an autistic angry man who lives to torment Aquaman. His hatred isn’t even all that justified. You don’t speak for me asshole
Wyatt Kelly
Fuck off, you revisionist coomer dyke
Thomas Barnes
Jesus Christ I don’t relate to OJ you autist
Lucas Rodriguez
No, they are people pushed to extremes by horrible trauma and societal abandonment and neglect.
There is a reason they go to Arkham and not State Penitentiary.
Matthew Nguyen
>You relate to black manta BECAUSE hes a piece of shit, hes a complete psycho who has abandoned all moral pretense to commit revenge.
What are you fucking blathering about.
Youre a retard. This stupid fucking phenomenon is not new and did not fucking begin with the Joker. It's been done so much that it's a trope now.
Noah Lopez
then why do you like him? what separates him from any other villain?
Tyler Torres
can you maybe drop the ad hominem attacks? I'm trying to have a civil conversation here and you keep insulting me, its not making me sympathetic to your position.
Sebastian Perez
You can like a character and not relate to them. I don't know how else to put it.
Leo Peterson
There is no crowd to win over here. You're just making yourself out look like a heel.
Evan Morales
He’s a Captain Ahab type, a mortal man with the drive to take on Earth’s strongest natural organism. He’s fun given how petty he is, and he has a good look He’s insulting you because you’re fucking retarded spouting nonsense
Nolan Cox
>You can like a character and not relate to them. how?
Brody Hernandez
I agree with you.
Brody Baker
She's still alive though. Aunt of the ginger henchgirls.
Lucas Bailey
alright. i'm done.
have fun arguing with people who already agree with you.
Well thank you for admitting you were full of shit.
Juan Perry
There's nothing wrong with her being both. When she's in a good mood, when things are going well, her eco-terrorism is at a minimum and she's content to be left alone. Then something pisses her off and she goes full wrathful avatar of the green.
Noah Perry
>You're just making yourself out look like a heel. Did you have a stroke while attempting to communicate in English? I don't speak revisionist coomer dyke
the problem is that she wears clothes, shouldn’t someone so obsessed with nature be a naturist?
Hudson Fisher
>No, they are people pushed to extremes by horrible trauma and societal abandonment and neglect. Not everyone. Some people are just fucking psychos, you don't need a sad emo backstory.
Christian Powell
I mean, as someone who watched B:tAS as it was airing, it's really not and only kids here say this.
At the time, the idea of Harley/Ivy was just hot. This was before Yas Forums and alt-right culture shit. Girl on girl was just hot, it wasn't political. Christian right was a minority voice in nerd culture at best, which I would say was pretty apolitical and probably a bit more liberal than conservative (socially, anyway) just because it tended to be younger (older comic fans were just less likely to still be active in it).
