For all the Universal love Iroh gets, he's still responsible for his part in the war as Prince Iroh...

Was too depressed at the time of his son's death to challenge his brother for the throne, which was legitimately his so other important people would have supported his claim. He had the chance to take control of the Fire Nation and progressively stop the war.
Instead he sat back and doted on Zuko as a coping mechanism for the death of Lu Ten.
He became so much of a peace fag it hurt his ideals, and so the heavy lifting ended up falling on a group of kids.

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Absolutely a fair point and probably indicative of why he's such a pacifist for so long afterwards. He can scarcely bring himself to fight until after his imprisonment and the Fire Nation effectively winning world domination. Iroh's biggest flaw throughout the series is that he was afraid to use his enormous power and leadership skill

This. I love Iroh, but he clearly played favourites with Zuko and Azula. He gave Azula a doll (which is pretty sexist, especially since she demonstrated no interest in dolls) whereas he gave Zuko a knife. It just shows how Iroh clearly took the time to learn about Zuko's interests over Azula's.

I guess you could argue that Iroh was aware of Ozai's favouritism for Azula, but Iroh is (1) pretty astute and (2) fucking knows what a dick his brother his. And before you say, "Ozai might not have been a dick then", consider that Ozai taught Azula to wish for Iroh's death in addition to Lu Ten, and such callous remarks were apparently so typical of Ozai that Azulon decided to punish his ass. That means Azulon either heard Ozai say this sort of thing before and told him to stop, or Azulon had reason to believe Ozai would actually find a way to make it happen. Either way, if Azulon caught on to Ozai's dickery, Iroh probably was aware of it too.

Therefore, even if Azula was favoured by Ozai, it should have been obvious that Ozai is a pragmatist who only values his children as utilities. Azula may be less directly abused than Zuko, but that doesn't mean she doesn't need love and support in order to get her away from Ozai.

Everyone failed Azula. It's hard to blame Ozai because he's such a universal monster, but Iroh and Ursa - the two sane members of Azula's family - completely abandoned her in favor of Zuko. Ursa, rather than trying to drive a wedge between Azula and Ozai so his cancerous influence was limited, Ursa punishes Azula for exhibiting the same sociopathic qualities Ozai no doubt praises (ex. harassing turtleducks). No wonder Azula clung to Ozai, he was the only one that gave her positive attention. Maybe if Ursa or Iroh praised Azula for things Ozai never bothered to acknowledge, then maybe her behaviour could have been shifted in a kinder and healthier direction.

1/2

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2/2

But nah, Zuko can do whatever he wants and Iroh forgives him. But Azula? A literal 14 year old girl? Well, she's obviously crazy and needs to go down. This coming from a guy who was still slaughtering mudbenders well into his forties. The hypocrisy is astounding. Azula was never given a chance to be good.

I think this is why Zuko's final victory breaks Azula. Zuko always sucked up the genuine and unconditional love whereas Azula had only Ozai's acknowledgement in return for her military competency. She never had love. So she developed sour grapes and decided that love was super gay and lame and not worth her time, and that fear was a better motivator.

So imagine her surprise when fear stops working and Mai, Ty Lee, and Zuko all stand up to her. Zuko is saved in the end not through his ability to inspire fear (ie. beating the shit out of Azula) but by his ability to inspire love (ie. Katara's feelings of friendship are what propel her to kick Azula's ass and save Zuko's life).

Azula never received love and friendship, so she never understood how it could motivate people. She tried to console herself by declaring these things useless in lieu of fear. Azula understood fear, it was at the crux of her relationship with her father - the most significant relationship in her self. Remember when she freaked out and said he couldn't treat her like Zuko? Pure panic in her voice. In the end, however, Azula realizes that all her natural aptitude in the world cannot compensate for the simple fact that others have deemed Zuko worthy of love and her unworthy.She can kick Zuko's ass, but he will always have Uncle, his girlfriend, and his friends to bail him out. I'd cry too.

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how could he have possibly copped a feel?
he was paralyzed at the time by paralyzing venom

user the entire joke of that scene is that Iroh didn't get hit by the shirshu's tongue, he's just pretending.

Thank you, I watched the series and read the comics, there were always subtle hints she was looking for some kind of love, when she didn't get that she went looking for attention. Good or bad, sometimes I thought she was bi-polar, then liking her brother Zuzu then disliking him. I mean first she tells him he's a shit disgrace and than she inspires him claiming he restored his own honor when chosing to side with the fire nation against his traitor uncle. She must have gotten some kind of issue with that.

Then some general hints she's jealous of the attention Ty Lee got from boys, tries to do the same but it just backfires.

She was constantly looking for validation but Ozai was the only one who would praise her for her competence, and then the sad part is he was probably just doing it as a grudge to Ursa to make Zuko feel bad... it may not even been genuine.

Pretending to be a gentle old man when he was a warlord responsible for untold deaths. He can sing leaves from the vine until he is horse, it doesn't make his actions any less relevant, especially where he chose to sing it. That hill would have been ash had he won.
If anything he should be glad his son is dead, if he actually did change at all.

I'll just post those pages here, the only love she got from Ozai was just because he was using her as a tool to make Zuko feel shitty... She really had nobody who cared about her at all, Iroh should have been there for her.

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This is seems to be further confirmed when the Fire Lord states to Zhao should Zuko find and capture the avatar he will be redeemed and his superior. He had every attention after Ursa left to keep Zuko the next inline for the throne.

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He's fat, but we never actually see him eat that much to get fat, it's just always tea.

Very early avatar general iroh was a general from the fire nation just as terrible as anyone else who lost his son and that changed him.
Later on they kept adding to the character to make him into some kind of saint but in my opinion that just took away from his character.
He works so much better as an old man full of regrett

I highly doubt Iroh and Ursa could realistically help Azula, Ozai's influence on her was far too great. If he feared any threat for Azula becoming soft like Zuko, he would just isolate her or turned against her mother and uncle.

As for Zuko-Azula relationships, it's pretty clear she loved him, but was forced to constantly prove she is better than him to not make herself look "weak". And for Azula being weak basically means becoming a disappointment in her father's eyes - the thing she scared the most in her entire life. That would mean she lost the support of both of her parents now - the fate she probably considered being worse than death.

>The daily tea he started drinking was made from some sort of marihuana leaves

Change my mind.

Most of what they added was things he did in the past?

Yeah, that makes it all the sadder, the influence on her wasn't even out of love for her, she was just an exposition tool to make Zuko feel bad.

Now I can understand that 'breakdown' part a little better when she actually realized later one he didn't care about her one bit. She never had anyone

Iroh was there since a young age and he had been there for Zuko, just a bit of love for Toddler Azula might have done wonders.

he doesn't have any, he's a Gary Stu especially in B3 because the VA died so they angelified Iroh

Loves tea so much that it makes him act against his best interests (consuming the poison berries, heating his tea in public).

>but that doesn't mean she doesn't need love and support in order to get her away from Ozai
>Everyone failed Azula
>Azula never received love and friendship
Azula was a psycopath right from the start. She let herself be used because she thought she could outsmart everyone and become firelord at 14. She couldn't, and that broke her. Remember how she considered herself over tides while in a boat, that's her in a nutshell. Justimagine the boat actually crashing.

She was evil, user, she was crazy and needed to go down. There is no way Azula is not accountable for her sins, she got what she deserved.

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But how did she grew up to be that way though? You say 14, that's not the start, Iroh and Ursa saved Zuko from becoming 'evil' during upbringing, why didn't Azula get any attention from them?

he is filled with regrets. he think his son died because of him and this has teach him humility.

he was raised and indoctrinated in a ''my culture is superior'' society but war opened his eyes harshly.

Azulacucks are so pathetic. Stop trying to 'save' a shit character just because she gets your dick hard.

Reminder the show very intentionally implied the only reason Iroh invaded Ba Sing Se was because he had a vision in his youth that he would conquer the city, and not because he was so loyal to the Fire Nation

She was a perfect antagonist though, she's 'shit' on purpose of course. All of these are fictional characters so they're only as great or flawed as the writers make them, but it's nice to imagine how it could have worked.

>As for Zuko-Azula relationships, it's pretty clear she loved him
No, it really isn't. She watches smiling as he's scarred for life, teases him about Ozai killing him (which she knew was serious), and has no qualms about murdering him. She's somewhat nicer toward him between the end of Book 2 and the middle of Book 3, but that's when she was controlling him. She doesn't seem disturbed at all when he betrays them, in Boiling Rock she behaves towards him just like throughout Book 2. And in contrast, Ty Lee and Mai turning on her genuinely breaks her. She also shows some remorse after making Ty Lee cry. It's quite clear Azula saw them as more than pawns, but the same doesn't apply to Zuko. Zuko, on the other hand, did love her though.

>A literal 14 year old girl?
I keep forgetting this is the case.

>No, it really isn't. She watches smiling as he's scarred for life
she was fucked in the head but she loved him in her own way

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Where is this from?

official partial novelisation
I think its called chronicles or something

Azula was crazy and needed to go down though. Iroh during the war was just doing his job, he was fighting for evil, but he was never an evil person himself. Azula is sadistic and sociopathic, coupled with her enormous power, she's a threat to basically everyone. Iroh was good at reading people, and he read Azula correctly.

As for Iroh and Ursa's action during Azula's upbringing, you seriously are demonizing them. We never see Ursa punishing Azula in any way except for some relatively tame scolding. The harshest thing we ever see her said is literally "what's wrong with that child?" after she essentially wishes for her grandfather death (or was it after wishing for Iroh's?). And from the little interactions of Ursa/Azula we had, one of them is Azula forcing Zuko to "play" with her via convincing her mother that she should spend some time with her brother, showing that she was able to manipulate her affection at an early age. She knows what Ursa values, Ursa shows example and encourages Azula when she's (pretending to) show signs of this. But the only thing Azula does with it is bullying her brother. Realistically speaking, what could Ursa do? As for Iroh, Zuko seemed very surprised by "crazy and needs to go down" remark, showing that something Iroh wouldn't say beforehand, he expected the exact opposite even after Iroh was seriously hurt by her. This implies it's definitely not how Iroh was toward her beforehand.

I don't entirely disagree, that he gave up on Azula too quickly, but a man can only do so much and Zuko needed the help too.

>some side material or other shit
Come on. It's totally not how it is in the show.

still cannon

>that he gave up on Azula too quickly
What could he have done? Azula was out for his head. And as stubborn as Zuko was, he'd at least pause to listen.

You don't become a psychopath simply with a bad upbringing, that shit's for a large part genetics

I really don't give a shit. The show is the show, that's what everyone knows, rest is for autists. I'm not going to take "well akshually it's totally not how it went" from some side shit literally 7 people read.

Not him, but you are right, psychopath is born psychopath. But Azula isn't one. A psychopath doesn't care for stuff like mommy or daddy loving them. They're literally unable to. Azula is closer to a sociopath. And sociopath you are made, not born.

that's sounds pretty autistic to me user
besides Azula goes out of her way to do good by Zuko on a couple separate occasions

>besides Azula goes out of her way to do good by Zuko on a couple separate occasions
When? In a moment that didn't benefit her?
>that's sounds pretty autistic to me user
Nah, not really.

I think Azula loved Zuko (and Mai and Ty Lee and her parents) but her ability to care about people and form relationships is severely screwed up

First of all, let me say that headwriter himself stated that Azula loved Zuko. You cannot argue with it, because it's a canon.

>She watches smiling as he's scarred for life, teases him about Ozai killing him (which she knew was serious
I'd like to remind you that in flashbacks she and her brother were still a little children. Like, maybe 10 or something? At this age a child without proper parents support would have no fucking idea about the concepts of life&deaths, empathy, etc, or will take them very lightly. For example, Zuko himself wasn't that sad about Iroh's son death, and they used to play together a lot, probably were a friends.
>and has no qualms about murdering him
I can agree with that, considering at their first meeting at book 2 she tried to oneshot him with lightning. But I believe the main reason was those 3 years of Ozai's brainwashing.
>he's somewhat nicer toward him between the end of Book 2 and the middle of Book 3, but that's when she was controlling him
She has no reason to control him, neither to bring him back to FN as a hero. Moreover, she put herself at quite a risk, considering Ozai could potentially recognize Zuko as his legitime heir, leaving her with nothing.
>She doesn't seem disturbed at all when he betrays them
You don't know that, though. Azula is not the type of person showing her emotions openly. Remember in flashbacks she was mocking Zuko for playing with a knife Iroh gifted him? Guess, who then steals it for herself to play in secret.

That's just plain stupid, you know.
You can all laugh at Rowling talking some shit about Harry Potter after that many years, but until she stays a full-rights autor (and I believe she still does), everyhing she states is considered a canon. You may close your ears and "REEEE" all you want, this won't change anything and won't make you win any argument.

You can always argue that left or right a certain actions benefits her. In the ba-sing-se episode she did prioritize getting Zuko back on her side rather than trying to kill Aang and Katara using her Dai Lee. She didn't know till after the Avatar's escape she could use him as a bargaining chip in case she was still alive.

Then the ember island episode does display they are a family, she has no reason to hang around with Zuko after bringing him back after all, but she does. Then they take family revenge by burning down the house of some poor chaps together.

I'm very confused as well, one moment she seems to hate him, love seeing him get tormented but then she does seem to see him as family she wants to be at least be around. You can over-analyze because it's just a work of fiction but it looks like she does like her brother but resents him for being weak, and maybe a tad of jealousy of being mom's favorite.

>those smiles
you think Zhao and Azula would be good friends?

>She has no reason to control him, neither to bring him back to FN as a hero.
Yeah, except if the avatar is still alive Zuko would get the blame, and she knew he did. But the point remains she tried to get him back to her side before the avatar's escape, so at that time she couldn't have planned that.

While never stated outright, it's impossible that he did not
Top level general fighting at front
Son serving on the front lines as well
The letter he wrote where he joked that there is always the possibility that they might burn Ba Sing Se to the ground, which although a joke, does suggest the city would be sacked if taken

>have a nephew and a niece
>give nephew masculine thing (a knife)
>give niece a feminine thing (a doll)
What's weird with that, Zuko was 9 and Azula 7
Which 7-year old girl doesn't like dolls?

Do 7 year old still play with dolls though? I mean in our time line, not the avatar ones.

I still see tons of kids playing outside
And I know that my nephews and nieces still have toys
They just have electronic 'toys' next to those

>I still see tons of kids playing outside
Okay, well maybe not right now, but normally

>He gave Azula a doll (which is pretty sexist, especially since she demonstrated no interest in dolls)
Bruh.

Ye, but a seven year old with a doll would be kind of strange though, usually they grow out of that phase by age 5 max and move on. Anyway it seems Iroh didn't seem to have spend time on the gift or check her interests.

what does korra have to do with this?
the earth kingdom are filthy cave dwelling neanderthals and swamp people. they bathe in their own filth, eat dirtworms and have no unique accomplishments as a people.
fire nation was right to try to wipe them out

>BTW, this is an Azula thread now, yw
season 2 turned avatar into an Azula show too
nothing personnel

Is it though? We saw ba-sing-se, they had great administration, a supreme secret service, well managed agricultre to produce for huge population and advanced infrastructure such as subways and trains, they lasted a 100 year war. They lost against engineering advancement from the fire nation but they surpassed them in other areas.

B&R

Azula girl is best girl, plus we never saw what became of her during the Korra series, fuck that.

The firenation had trains, the earth kingdom didn't. in the comics sokka has a meltdown the first time he sees a train in the capital city

and their secret service was so shitty and disloyal a preteen girl managed to get them to betray the earth kigndom and get down on one knee for her.

Yes they did, they were subway/trams moved forward by earthbenders.

Also

>The entire fire nation being defeated by an 11 year old boi with back problems

>Yes they did, they ere subway/trams moved forward by earthbenders.

literally Flintstones technology
LOL