By that I mean to say the fact that the Joker is supposed a crazy person who is only slightly more intelligent and athletic than average, yet he is somehow able to rack up a 3-digit kill count and evade pursuit of a character who is regularly put over as a god killer.
A few options A) Joker was really supernatural all along B) Make Joker actually as competent as Batman + crazy (This might not be an option anymore because of the Batman Who Laughs) B) Joker is actually being supported by someone who profits from his antics (i.e. take the meta reason for his continued to survival and make it text) C) Batman isn't really that that good anyway, otherwise why would he have so much trouble with a murder clown?
Other ideas are welcome. I'm curious as to what would be the easiest sell to the public.
>Joker is actually being supported by someone who profits from his antics (i.e. take the meta reason for his continued to survival and make it text) This could work, but I cant imagine what kind of people would do such thing.
Nathaniel Roberts
The Joker is actually not a single person, but a series of copycats. A lot of them fail to achieve anything of note, but with enough of them, successful high-profile heists become almost inevitable. Really, though, I don't think there's any need to come up with a reason for something like this. Just accept that the odds are not on Joker's side, and he keeps thriving in spite of them. I mean, Batman's supposedly a baseline human with nothing going for him but money, a sharp mind and a few years of ninja training. The setting never made any sense.
They really need to do away with the "Joker as a mass murderer" concept. It's the one thing that breaks immersion. Realistically, he would've been put to death a long time ago, even if he's "insane." Or at least be put in a maximum security prison like ADX instead of a lax asylum. If DC instead chose to play up Joker's gangster side, like make him more into a Al Capone figure, it'd make more sense why he gets away with things.
Jeremiah Davis
The Joker only racks up such a high kill count because Batman is an irresponsible bitch. Any sane vigilante (or cop, or armed citizen) would just kill him. It's actually ridiculous that the other criminals in Gotham haven't just joined forces to kill Joker, seeing as how he is bad for business. If you're selling crack, or running protection rackets, or whatever, you don't want some retard poisoning the water supply, or gassing McDonald's, or blowing up old folk's homes for no reason and creating chaos. But, because Batman is a fucking moron, he actively prevents anybody from killing the Joker whenever possible,because apparently Batman is an evil maniac who WANTS Joker to keep raping and crippling his friends, murdering old ladies, etc.
This. And him being a mass murderer for no reason actually would preclude most criminals from working for him. Organized criminals want to make a profit and increase in profit, and there isn't a big market for slaughtering innocent people as a joke on Batman.
Henry Gomez
It's plot armor man. Comic writers keep popular characters around.
Mason Parker
Also, mass murder isn't funny. You can kill a specific guy in an ironic way and have it be a good punchline, but when you are killing whole crowds of people... where is the joke? Even if there was a joke there in some fashion no joke remains funny after you tell it 50 times. 100 times. 1000 times.
Mass murder inherently clashes with the Joker's established deal.
Cameron Brooks
I agree, but the writers should at least make the narrative make some sort of sense. There are several plot elements in the Bat mythos that make no sense together. 1. Batman is a revenge obsessed vigilante 2. Batman swore to fight to ensure that no child would go what he went through if he can prevent it 3. The Joker has been butchering innocent people by the hundreds for years 4. Batman refuses to kill him, because despite being a revenge obsessed vigilante, Batman has an irrational "no kill rule" even in instances where NOT killing a lunatic like the Joker actively TURNS MORE KIDS INTO ORPHANS.
Hudson Morris
he's popular just that, Black Widow is just an average spy (now they say that she has a little bit of supersoldier in her blood but a little bit) and she's fighting against Thanos Ultron Doom, etc, is stupid as fuck
Ethan Green
Not really. I mean obviously wasting a bunch of people would be funny to a nut like the Joker. But his mass murder sprees combined with other elements (that he has henchmen despite killing them often, cops and criminals not outright killing him, Arkham still being allowed to remain open, etc) just makes it ridiculous.
Matthew Baker
That did bother me about the movies, particularly in number 2. >Hulk smashing Ultrons with his great strength? Ok. >Ironman blowing them up with his super weapons? Sure. >Black Widow, a slut in a sex suit, killing them with her 9mm? Uh, why didn't the cops just shoot Ultron then?!
Jaxson Nelson
Also, and I know I'm going to get shit for this, the Joker existing is a huge argument as to why Batman's "no kill rule" is idiotic. Obviously he should be willing to kill in self defense situations, but Batman NOT killing someone like the Joker is an objectively immoral decision. He doesn't have to kill every retard criminal he meets, but the Joker has already killed hundreds, killed a Robin, raped Batgirl, etc.
Gabriel Campbell
BW is just an eye candy in a leather suit, she was great in The Avengers and Winter Soldier, after that she's just a stupid cunt, a little gun can kill ultrons lmao
Leo Robinson
B is actually sorta true though. There are tons of cases where the Joker out smarts batman. He just doesn't care or wants to be caught at the end of each game for fun but has to try enough where Batman can possible die. If Batman died to him he would probably stop doing what he does or go into some hyper maniac broke state.
I don't think you know what competent means if you think otherwise? Like some stupid Joker with all the martial art skills and sneaking skills? That would just be silly and out of character.
Nathaniel Rogers
That was my point. She's there to induce boners. That's it. Shoehorning her into the actions was stupid, the fact that she was dropping Ultrons with less firepower than any of the soldiers and cops running around means the Avengers didn't even need to be there.
Cooper Richardson
I like the idea, that Joker knows he is in a comic, and thats why he gets away with it, like he can never be turned good, because he knows he will truly die if the comic ends
Owen Moore
>only slightly more intelligent than average OP, I don't say this to be degrading, this is nothing but an objective assessment of your mental faculties & intelligence. You're a fucking idiot.
It's only funny if the crowd mass murders themselves.
Wyatt Sullivan
The problem is The Dark Knight Returns. Not the actual comic, which is great, but it’s legacy and people trying to one up it. In The Dark Knight Returns, a larger threat draws Batman out of retirement. He comes more powered up than ever before, wearing armor and driving a tank. Joker sees Batman’s return, and makes a return himself, committing bigger and deadlier crimes, and two mass murders (one against a group of children) before Batman catches up to him. Read as a sequel to ever Batman comic from the 30s to the 80s, Dark Knight Returns is a story of rising stakes, and the lives of the Batman characters getting a whole lot bigger. However, the changes it brought stayed, despite it being set in the future. There are maybe 20 different Batman rogues stronger than the Mutant Leader and a dozen gangs bigger than the Mutants. Jokers mass murders are a whole lot bigger and deadlier than his killing in Dark Knight Returns, and Batman now always wears advanced tactical armor. Read the Dark Knight Returns as if it were the sequel to every Batman comic from the 90s - 2020s, and it’s the story of a mild threat to Gotham that spurs Batman to put on some clunky weak armor, inspiring Joker to commit a small crime spree
Jeremiah Adams
I swear you people don't even read Batman comics, you just complain about them. Outside of Snyder, Joker doesn't just blow up crowds then move on, he even had a segment in the recent Villian special where he gets pissed at a copycat Joker for doing just that. The 3 most prevalent times he's done that kind of thing in canon (or ambiguous-canon in Lovers & Madmen) were >Zatanna's performance >The glass shard rain in L&M >Going Sane which were all posed as "funny" because in A) the people killed themselves by rushing to the electrified gates, B) Joker was standing at the site of impact & was the only one to have brought an umbrella with him & C) The bomb was carried in the middle of a clown parade which the neighbourhood welcomed with open arms.
Literally every time Joker commits mass-murder outside Snyder it's in a. gimmicky light. Going by your complaints you'd think you've never read anything with Joker in it your entire life, you're just parroting the same complaints you hear online
Austin Hill
Wasn’t there a comic in which some rando shot the Joker dead and was declared not guilty by a jury? I swear I saw that somewhere.
Matthew Fisher
>raping Wat?
Daniel Harris
retard, Joker rapes and cripples barbra gordan
Cooper Torres
This thread is stupid
Jace Fisher
I think you have the order confused, but yeah
Levi Clark
>The glass shard rain in L&M >B) Joker was standing at the site of impact & was the only one to have brought an umbrella Shit, that actually is kind of funny,
>slightly more intelligent In most of his incarnations Joker is portrayed as being a lot more intelligent than average people. He's not Lex Luthor super level, but he's legitimately a genius and also shown to be very persuasive when he needs to be.
Owen Garcia
Joker is just a narcissist asshole. Psychopathic, yes, but not insane. He's fully aware and in control of his actions
Carter Moore
>In most of his incarnations Joker is portrayed as being a lot more intelligent than average people. He's not Lex Luthor super level, but he's legitimately a genius and also shown to be very persuasive when he needs to be. But... why? And how?
I guess it works if you consider craziness a superpower, or if you go with the "nobody knows who he really was" and he was a demolitions and toxicology expert beforehand, but if we're going with the "some dumb sap who was did a crime in a bucket helmet and then fell into some acid" origin, how does that translate into him being able to rig the kind of bombs and poisons that would make any terrorist group green with envy?
Jose Hughes
>But... why? And how? Well for one being a violent psychopath doesn't mean you can't also be very intelligent, one does not negate the other. He also has a very dominant personality and knows how to manipulate people with weaker personalities. Again that's not even a superpower, there are numerous brilliant whackjobs in human history who have managed to build cults of personality around themselves.
Isaac Green
Its much easier to rob a bank when some nutjob is taking up all the police resources and distracting the local superdweebs across town.
Benjamin Russell
brian bolland confirmed babs wasn't raped. but he implied MAYBE gordon was the one molested at the carnival
Benjamin Morales
I think that he's just that crazy so he became unpredictable to everyone. He isn't smartest, but he have a very strange set of mind. I also like the idea that he isn't just some crazy clown, but a prince of Gotham's crime world. He has authority over other criminal groups in Gotham, also he's probably working with some Gotham's big heads/oligarchs. Of course in the long run characters like this couldn't be tolerated, you can't just put him again in the Arkham after his another mass murdering. But it's comics they are usually do stupid things and refuse to end stories because they would lost their profits. So you either ok with how stupid it is or don't touch them.
Ayden Taylor
I liked how someone pointed out that wabbit season was basically the same situation, but with bugs as red hood
Cooper Russell
It's pretty clear that she was raped and that Joker forced Jim to look at nude pics of his daughter.
Grayson Barnes
One of the problems with that is no criminal organization would put up with that nonsense, and he'd have no authority whatsoever. Real life groups like the cartels might do insane shit, but it's directed and serves some purpose. The Joker routinely kills his own henchmen, so why would anyone work for him? And whereas the cartel carries out atrocities for profit, no real crime group will see "annoying Batman" as a valid reason to sacrifice money, resources, and the lives of employees.
John Jackson
Terrorist groups, crime syndicates, rogue states, etc. Fuck, Joker convinced Iran to make him an ambassador (although I think it's been retconned to Qurac Post-Crisis). As mentioned he can be weirdly persuasive in his own way. I've always figured that Joker has maintained his position in Gotham's crimeworld by simply being too god damn scary to fuck with. Unlike a traditional crime boss he has no real organization or infrastructure to protect so he will go total war at the drop of hat, burn everything and start over again later. Also I'd imagine to guys like Penguin and Black Mask he's useful in the sense that Batman will always prioritize the Joker over them.
Yeah, comics are unrealistic, that's it. There is no need to look at them from that point of view because they wouldn't make any sence. You either believe that some millionare in his favourite fursuit would fight evil gangster clown, or not.
Liam Bailey
This is a genuinely interesting take and will definitely make me appreciate The Dark Knight Returns more when I next read it.
Dylan Campbell
It wouldn't be so implausible if they just tweaked a few things: 1. Joker is hated by Gotham's criminals. Show some mob boss or gang boss order Joker killed, have him onscreen dismantle the gang and torture the boss to death on TV to explain why criminals don't just whack him. 2. Make Batman willing to kill Joker.
Thomas Jenkins
If there wasn't a joker bats would have to deal with his issues
Noah Davis
What issues? His parents were murdered. That pissed him off. If he went out every night killing criminals, that would be dealing with his issues.
Charles Allen
I like the approach Something Unlimited took to mass-murdering villains >Want to pass a bill/extort congress/build weapons of mass destruction >Hire Joker and others to make a big scandal that will pollute the media while you enact your real plan in the shadows
It keeps Batman and many other superheroes busy and off your back, so the profit is there and I'm sure villains as deranged as Joker with an affinity for that kind of shit has plenty of job. Also can help in maintaining the "economy" by culling people and keeping numbers. Hell, it can even showcase how "ineffective" the heroes are while making your product/company look good.
>B) Make Joker actually as competent as Batman + crazy (This might not be an option anymore because of the Batman Who Laughs)
This has always been my headcanon and seems to be supported with what we see, especially in BTAS. He's able to whip up a ton of clown and gag-themed gadgets that kill people, he's able to either directly steal valuable objects or orchestrate his crew to steal shit for him, and he clearly has a ton of money even if he spends it in bizarre ways. He's clearly very clever.
Liam Adams
>Make Batman willing to kill Joker I know it's one of Yas Forumss favorite equine corpses to flay, but why does it have to be Batman to kill Joker? Aside from the failings of the courts, the cops have had numerous opportunities to ventilate Joker with bullets. Or even have another hero do it. That might actually make for a good story, some other hero just gets tired of Bats dragging his feet and offs Joker, Bats gets all asshurt and the rest of the heroes argue about if it was right or not.
David Garcia
I like this, because it echos the "superheroes create their own villains by existing" thing that comics love touching on. There's some hyper competent vigilante going around breaking up all of the criminal enterprises? Suddenly superpowered freaks have an army of henchmen, funding for their gimmicky weapons, and the legal system is mysteriously inclined to find them not guilty on technicalities. Then the various criminal families can go back to their business knowing Batman is too busy trying to diffuse a Joker gas bomb to worry about them.
Asher Robinson
I'd be for that, except the "heroes argue whether it's right or not". Really everyone should just condemn Batman for indirectly murdering hundreds of people and destroying countless lives due to his own moral cowardice. He's refused to kill his bff Joker for years.
Chase Price
This would be interesting to explore, but would probably unintentionally reinforce the "see? He should just kill them" argument.
Connor Sanchez
he's so careless about anything that he's actually able to unlock the full potential of the human body, thus gaining high resistance and agility.
Evan Sanchez
it's a catharsis thing. joker has been tormenting batman and gotham for years, it just makes sense that the city's self appointed protector should take him out.
but i do like the idea about batman being willing to kill the joker if it comes to that. he treats every other villain with a degree of sympathy because most of his rouges gallery is mentally ill or were dealt a shit hand, but the joker is so abhorrent that batman has to mentally prepare himself to make the one exception to his rule for the joker.
You know who would be an interesting pick? Hawkman. Hawkman strikes me as the kind of guy who just get sick of Bruce's shit and split the Joker's melon open with his mace. And given that he's supposed to be one of the most tactically brilliant heroes in DC, it wouldn't be an ass-pull for him to outsmart Joker.
This. I get that Batman is not the Punisher. I wouldn't expect him to kill Penguin unless his life depended on it, or Penguin was selling children or something else horrible. But the Joker is basically just a monster.
Adam Evans
That is a good pick. The whole "tactical brilliance" thing isn't even necessary though. The Joker publicly murders people like twice a week. Just kill him as soon as you see him.
Easton Gonzalez
Joker isnt crazy. He's not psychotic, he's a psychopath like Manson
Daniel Jackson
D) He lives in a society.
Chase Cruz
A pathetic midget defeatist who never killed anyone?
Kevin Reyes
I dont read comics, is joker mass murdering people really that frequent?
Luis James
What would be the point of that? They'll just start funding some other whack job if one of them dies.
Elijah Lopez
You do understand this is the plot of literally every else world in existence, right? Oh wait I forgot: Yas Forums doesn't read comics If you actually cared about leniency in the JL's killing policy you'd want him to kill an intergalactic despot like The Monguls. This is just an attempt to make people talk about your favourite character who no-one cares about by forcing him into a thread about an entirely unrelated character
Camden Sanchez
You missed my point. Fans would say "if he had killed the rich crime bosses and street trash immediately, there wouldn't BE any supervillains."
Jace Harris
>Superman could just put his hand through his chest like he did in Injustice >apparently respects Bruce too much to actually kill the one person that causes him the most trouble There are more important threats to Earth than a crazy guy dressed like a clown. Bruce needs to see the bigger picture, especially the fact that his rogue's gallery is full of non-powered lunatics who don't really pose a threat to people like Superman or Wonder Woman but are put on a higher pedestal so as to make Batman seem strong.
Obviously the JLA should proactively kill galactic threats. That's a nobrainer. It still doesn't make sparing the Joker make sense.
Chase Cooper
I think Joker needs to be used as a toxic charismatic villain, in the sense that he pushes people to commit the crimes while having an endgame in mind. The thing is, Joker is able to maintain his status because nothing is sacred to him, so in order to achieve whatever insane goal he has, he need to put his own people and his enemies in situations that they need to sacrifice something to stop him, only to realize that his sacrifice is meaningless. Otherwise, he should really just be an insane party, without any allegiances or thugs, working in the shadows, as some sort of foil to Batman's methods, but needing to steal from the mob for his resources.
Blake Perez
It would be so easy for 99% of the JLA to kill Joker with minimal effort.
