If New Gods is supposed to be Jack Kirby's follow up to Ragnorak, Does that mean Norse Gods are on the same level of them since they were their precursors? Also weren't New Gods supposed to be part of the Marvel universe until Kirby left? Doesn't that make Thor Darkseid-level powerful? How does he lose to the Infinity Gauntlet if that's the case?
If New Gods is supposed to be Jack Kirby's follow up to Ragnorak...
Isaac Long
Other urls found in this thread:
zak-site.com
zak-site.com
twitter.com
Owen Baker
It makes Thor Orion-Level.
>Orion is more powerful
Not than the non-Kirby darkseid you're imagining.
Eli Phillips
>If New Gods is supposed to be Jack Kirby's follow up to Ragnorak
Well it's the comic that picks up after Kirby's last issue of Thor. It was kind of a nod and a wink to "this is what I did before, but here's the newer, cooler shit"
Dylan Jackson
Don't even bring that Shonen logic into this. In Kirby's work, any one character can defeat the other since it all depends on the writer's intent for the story. If you remember the only New Genesis god that has an actual superpowers is Lightray. Darkseid has some abilities like the Omega Beam.
And Darkseid in Kirby's original works never engaged in physical combat. This was saved for Orion and his final battle. Darkseid was more of a mastermind schemer than titanic warlord like Thanos.
Stan liked Kirby's pitch for the New Gods but Stan didn't want to kill of Thor's pantheon and so told Jack he could add them into the Marvel Universe. Jack didn't want to see he already had the Norse gods, Greek and the Inhumans. I think he was planning it to be more like the Eternals where it was separate from the mainline universe (even though they used SHIELD and editorial later forced Kirby to use the Hulk). In New Gods #7 at the peak of the conflict between New Genesis and Apokolips, Highfather says that they are behaving like the old gods hinting at the Asgardian's war against the Giants.
Cameron Morales
The New Gods are basically spiritual Successor to Asgardians (Theyte technology, physiology and so forth are considered "God-like"). The Asgardians were originally "Space Vikings" with Technology and immense Ultra science and strength like Kryptonians to a extent.
They were never concepts bullshit from Morrison.
They were Metahuman Aliens whi were close to the source that gave their capabilities.
Mind you as DC continue on they begin to retcon some of New Gods.
Same thing for Marvek with Asguardians.
It goes like this
Asgardians,
Fourth World,
And lastly Captain Victory which takes place after Fourth World whuch was written by Jack Kirby himself.
Matthew Sanders
Bear in mind the "The New Gods are transcendent, beyond the normal gods, hyper-elemental embodied archetype" stuff was post-Kirby. I like it and it has its place, but... "It wasn't so from the beginning".
So yes, I'd say the New Gods were the successors to the Asgardians, conceptually speaking, and power-wise, except they were the new hotness.
Dylan Turner
>hyper-elemental embodied archetype" stuff was post-Kirby
This,
Grant Morrison bullshit.
Juan Collins
I like Grant Morrison work but yeah I agree with you. His doing with the New Gods was trash.
I do like his DC 1 million though which is basically his version of Fifth World.
Kayden Reed
Grant's been trying to push his Fifth World ideas for 20 years now, and each time DC just goes "Okay cool" and goes the other way.
Andrew Fisher
True,
DC 1 Million is about as close as "Fifth World" as we can get. I enjoyed myself and the characters. I have all the issues so I'm glad.
Wyatt Butler
That is why I consider anything else than Morrison to be pseudocanonical at best.
He understands and loves the superheroic ideal better than anyone alive, and that is also why I do enjoy his version of the New Gods.
I like the idea that the adventures of the New Gods we did witness were like the cartoon version, or a shadowplay... these events were representations of what was happening in the higher dimension they reside in.
I do understand anyone who calls me a pretentious woofter for that, however.
Michael Price
Now I wonder how we should assess Solaris. I forgot he is a Morrison creation.
Hudson Price
Whatever it's your enjoyment.
I love Kirby New Gods,
You go ahead and love Morrison "New Gods".
The only thing I like from Morrison is DC 1 Million.
Lincoln Morris
>Theyte technology
What is that?
Levi Wright
Misspelled it
"They're Technology"
Jordan Richardson
Solaris is literally a uber version of a pissed off Star version of Ego the planet.
Christian Price
The Eternals were also New God like and >Their.
Fucking autocorrect keyboard....
Wyatt Sanders
>The Eternals.
The Eternal are New Gods in a way, Jack Kirby created them (after he left DC) to continue his work. The Eternals are what Kirby originally envisioned the New Gods.
They're both even called Forever People as well.
Tyler White
The problem with Morrison's New Gods has always been that he's too far up his own ass with the meta-narrative that he forgets the actual narrative.
Kirby never needed to spell out for us what any of the new gods were gods OF. It was both obvious in their characters and actions and irrelevant to the actual story. Morrison meanwhile is obsessed with what deeper meaning they can convey that he forgets they're supposed to be actual characters with personalities and storylines of their own.
That's why the Rock of Ages is still the best New Gods story Morrison wrote.
Liam Jones
I do love Kirby's New Gods more.
It is so absolutely uncompromising.
Dominic Hughes
Jack kirby vision is that every civilizations no matter how cosmic transcendentant, Scientifically and Technological ultr-advanced and immensely powerful they were, that in natural nature they will destroyed themselves out of greed and differences and so forth.
Captain Victory Galactic Rangers takes place after Fourth World (after the war between New Genesis and Apokolips which they destroyed themselves in the process). Jack kirby wrote this comic book issue mind you.
Captain Victory was the Son of Orion and Darksied Grandfather.
Samuel Thompson
*ultra-advanced
John Walker
This,
I'm surprised to see someone know of Captain Victory books but that's great! I loved all the issues including Joe Casey one!
Mason Powell
>You go ahead and love Morrison "New Gods".
Not him but I'll gladly do that because it gives a solution for other people's interpretation of the New Gods in the DCU.
To me the Kirby timeline is New Gods to Captain Victory and that can't happen in the DCU, so the DCU is Morrison's version which is an echo of Kirby's timeline
And everything else that happened in the DCU is a shadowplay of the Morrison version which (while logical for the Post-COIE DCU) is an echo of the Kirby version.
Lucas Butler
I could do with a mini about the Second World. Byrnes description of their era was pretty epic.
Landon Flores
Charles Adams
>To me the Kirby timeline is New Gods to Captain Victory
That's what I just said dude.....
>DCU, so the DCU is Morrison's version.
It his version and he can do whatever he wants....
Like I said, you like whatever you like.
DC keeps rebooting shit anyways so whatever.
Colton Ross
Jose Foster
Henry Baker
Matthew King
Landon Green
Jeremiah Ortiz
Dominic Morales
I think Jack Kirby problem was he wa literally creating Pulp SF (The Asgardians are literally Space Vikings) and he intended to continue that flair in the comic industry with New Gods after "Ragnarok" and Captain Victory (which was very pulp sf). However he was doing that in a Cape comic industry that was aiming for literally Caped genre themes.
Jack kirby was an avid Pulp SF person and he grew up reading numerous of them in his youth. But his work wouldn't work with the Cape industry.
I always said if Jack started a Pulp SF franchise away from Marvel and DC (before it took off to its fame) he would of been successful
Wyatt Turner
Shit forgot the pic...
Nicholas Brown
Carson Murphy
Andrew Lee
Jordan Jackson
>called Forever People
If it's going to be like that, the Prime One of the Bug people in issue 9 referred to the Gods of New Genesis as Eternals. But really you have to go back to the Inhumans. They were the original Eternals as you could even see Greek names like Medusa and Gordon. Issue five of the New Gods, Metron calls himself a Celestial. The Inhumans in their first appearance don't even mention the Kree. It wasn't until their regulation to the backups in Thor were they connected to the Kree. Kirby's issue with the Kirby is a somewhat complex issue because of all the popular alien races in Marvel's sandbox, Kirby worked with the Kree the least. We see the Kree sentries first and they refer the Kree to be in the same manner as the Celestials this was also seen the Inhuman's origins in the Thor issues. Even in Ronan's first appearance we can presume he's just an agent/vessel sent from the actual Kree race, which we later saw as the Supreme Intelligence. It was later explained the Ronan is in fact a true Kree and the Supreme Intelligence was a collection of Kree minds. Then you got the divination of blue and pink Krees. Kirby used the Amazing Adventures stories of the Inhumans as an early template for the Fourth World. Even Psycho Man was a pre-Darkseid type.
I got tons more of these notes because I'm planning to write a Kirby centric story. If you all got more specific questions, ask away. We can never truly know what Kirby was up to but again it all stated with the Inhumans and he kept insisting Stan to have their own book. Which they were always planned to have. Because of the '66 Batman superhero hype was at a fever pitch even before the pilot was aired. Martin Goodman was given the go-ahead to included more titles for his deal with National. Over one weekend Kirby created the Black Panther and the Inhumans. Plans changed they were instead used in the FF.
The other pulp that influenced Kirby is Triplanetary by E.E. Smith.
Jaxon Perry
Eh, I agree,
Not to mention everytime Jack Kirby wanted to ended a series (Asgardians, New Gods) to continue onward to a new saga it ended with both Marvel and DC saying no to him which led to him getting extremely frustrated. Jack should of just done his work in the range of Pulp SF of his own franchise when he had the chance.
Landon Rogers
How can they be Gods and Goddesses if they were the only beings?
Jacob Fisher
>and he kept insisting Stan to have their own book.
Him and Stan should of done it. It was a missed opportunity. I believed they could've created an incredible Pulp SF franchise or so forth.
>Triplanetary by E.E. Smith.
Yeah Doc Smith was GOAT so I'm not surprised Jack took inspiration from it (Lensman is Kino as well).
Also Jack Kirby took inspiration from another GOAT Pulp SF franchise which was Perry Rhodan.
Camden James
Read
It was written by John Byrne.
Isaiah Hughes
Its John Byrne New Gods version so just get so confused about it. Not hating on John Byrne at all.
Henry Williams
I wish DC cared about the fourth world like you do, man.
Grayson Kelly
That doesn't answer my question. In the Second World there was one massive planet, right? And it said its inhabitants were gods and goddesses. But of what, and who? If they were the only people, then they were just powerful people, not gods of anything.
Logan Ramirez
>Not hating on John Byrne at all
I am his New Gods was horrible
Juan Young
Daniel Lewis
The more I read this, The more I realise how incredible Jack Kirby as a writer he was.
>Him and Stan should of done it. It was a missed opportunity of creating a Pulp SF franchise.
Yeah true the potential....
Oliver Ortiz
Can we all agree that Mister Miracle was wasted potential under Kirby? The best thing Englehart did when he brought the book back was getting rid of the literal Deus Ex Machina and making him an actual escape artist super hero
Ayden Parker
Well, they were reborn as tinier versions of themselves... and this Orion certainly qualifies as such.
***
Hmmm. At least there was some grandeur.
Maybe Al Ewing can have a go at them... some day...
Levi Anderson
Huh. Did Alex Ross base his Jay Jonah on Jack?
Logan Wilson
John King
Leo Garcia
>If they were the only people, then they were just powerful people, not gods of anything.
they're the gods in the sense of Aesirs.
Only powerful and they don't need prays or whorship to be gods
Josiah Nguyen
They were gods in retrospect.
And 'god' is just a word; you don't have to be a god OF something, no matter what Jason Aaron says.
Daniel Anderson
Some of the anons have already answered it for you but as stated again it's John Byrne version so dont get confused.
Julian Bailey
True, especially the Inhumans.
Joshua Peterson
Also, since the Godwave washed over Earth, and there were already humans there, that means the other planets already existed. They were just eeny-weeny and thus ignored.
Jonathan Gutierrez
Gabriel Robinson
Jonathan White
Stan Lee and Steve Ditko were friends with him so yeah probably.
Hunter Harris
Michael Sanchez
Perry Rhodan is definitely a GOAT. I see A. E. van Vogt's Slan and the story Mutant by both Henry Kuttner and C. L. Moore as having an influence on Kirby especially take on what became is version of Mutants and later his space gods.
Thank you, anons.
The amazing thing is he generally had various ideas where a story would go but it wasn't until he sat down on the drawing type did he write the version usually improvising most of the issue. He would start at the middle of an issue and work towards the beginning then write the ending. One of Mark Evanier's task was to organize the pages. If something was off Kirby would throw a page in to make it streamline. This improve approach is what frustrated Evanier because he would ask Kirby what the Anti-Life Equation really was, and Kirby would say something one day and the the next day he had a completely different idea and he would say one day when I put pencil to paper will the definitive version to written. The Fourth World has the feel Kirby was feeling this out. This is because the original deal with DC is Kirby would only do the first issues of each series and work as an editor for the franchise. Ditko was to be on Mister Miracle, Don Heck on Forever People, Wally Wood on Orion of the New Gods and Kirby wanted to do a Lonar solo series and a Big Barda and the Female Furies title. This was denied to him and he merely shifted the characters into the other books. Lonar missing out of having more pages counts is a shame. We could have seen more Thor references in Lonar besides that helmet easter egg. Also Lonar's horse, Thunderer, is a surviver of Raganrok. Even the name harkens back to Thor. Remember Balder the Brave became literally the planet of New Genesis and Karnilla became Apokolips.
Even though Byrne's Fourth World came later, Thor under Roy Thomas begins to muddy up the Second World with his version of multiple Raganorks.
Jaxon Gutierrez
>The more I read this, The more I realise how incredible Jack Kirby as a writer he was.
He is, read up Chris Tolworthy's take on Kirby and Captain Victory.
zak-site.com
zak-site.com
Nicholas Parker
>Thank you.
Your welcome!
It good see a someone of this vast knowledge dude.
*Thumbs Up*
Ian Evans
>We could have seen more Thor references in Lonar besides that helmet easter egg. Also Lonar's horse, Thunderer, is a surviver of Raganrok.
Wow..... also your right about karnilla