What was so revolutionary about Watchmen?

Nazis didnt hate women and would have certainly looked upon incels with disgust. Both traits tend to indicate weak men.

If Rorschach is a nazi, then nazi's are based

>Rorschach is a nazi, we're not arguing that.
HBO watchmen isn’t canon

so, it was just the same but edgy?

The issue with calling Watchmen revolutionary is that it only works for a definition of "comics" that's limited to "American superhero comics". In that respect, it certainly breaks the rules, but as mentions, many of the subversions it employs are borrowed whole cloth from other genres.

>he hated jews, blacks, women and was incel
you reek of underage, or just a good bait. Rorschach is only uncomfortable with women and thinks homosexuality is a morally degenerate (a common thought at the time)
Hell, the only time we see Rorsch being a superhero is when he saves a woman from being raped/ mugged, killing a serial rapist, and savagely murdering a man who kidnapped and butchered a girl.

You're either intentionally being a retard, or just are a retard.

Rorschach hated gays not Jews or Blacks. He even black-pills his African American psychiatrist free of charge.

Why do people act like Walter hating women is a completely irrational thing? He was abused by his Mother at a very early age, at an important stage for development for a child. If you were bitten by a dog at that age you’d probably go around hating dogs for the rest of your life too.

Only if you never interacted with another dog in your life after that, then yes, that would be correct. That's not the case with him, however; everything beyond his mother is misconstrued and stubborn bias because he refused to learn and adapt whenever he was faced with reality.

It was one of the first mainstream comics to really address Cold War anxiety and the lurking fear that we really were just going to nuke ourselves out of existence. Up until that point superheroes comics had treated it with pretty soft gloves and just used the Soviets as rank and file villains. Any kind of criticism of how the Cold War was being handled was coming from indie comics, not the guys who published Superman. I know a lot of anons weren't even alive in the 80s but there was a palpable fear in the air, especially during Reagan's first time when he, Thatcher and their supporters just projected this arrogant, swaggering invincibility to the Soviets. Moore tapped into that really well and wrote a story about the high human cost of unquestioned righteousness.

Owlguy have a plane, Ozzy can catch bullets and Manhatten is somewhat powerful. But what exactly Silk Specter, Comedian, and Rorsarch bring unto the table?

>If you were bitten by a dog at that age you’d probably go around hating dogs for the rest of your life too.
This was me. I got bit at a young age and I was afraid of dogs until I was 18 when we finally got a dog of our own. Then I started getting better.

Rorschach is a good detective, Silk Spectre makes Manhattan hard, and comedian is rambo.

Learn what trauma is

that’s pretty much rorschach’s hamartia. despite his gruff exterior and calculated words, he’s easily the least mature and emotionally stable character in the book. even the way he speaks and thinks is very child-like, and every answer to the questions presented to him are simple. sometimes it’s good and it’s why he excels in his career, but other times it’s harmful and it’s illuminated even down into his character design (the black and white). that’s why i like his character so much; there’s so much nuance to him and it makes each reread all the more fun

meant for

>Silk Specter
>Rorschach
Other than above average fighting skills, nothing. But that was the whole point. Spectre was little more than media celebrity and Rorshach was a hobo who was convinced he was making a difference.
>Comedian
A lack of compunction or morals and enough pragmatism to realize that costumed adventuring was bullshit and he was better off with a gun in his hand and a government paycheck.

The irony of the entire story is that Rorschach is, unquestionably, the only person at the climax who advocates for the right thing, which is to expose Adrian's lies and bring him to justice. And his own comrades murder him for it.

If you can't articulate a reply, don't reply to me. I don't deal with brainlets.

>be SJW writers
>see the tragedy of Rorschach's life story and final moments as an indicator of Nazi-ism
>make a sequel to Watchmen where Rorschach's legacy is just entirely shat on by making it about right-wing left-wing political bullshit
Fuck HBO

based intellectanon

>his own comrades murder him for it
dont be one o those fags that makes Dan and Laurie complicit in it. They were in shock and further away, it was all Manhattan.

> expose Adrian's lies and bring him to justice.
If you do this, everything happened would be for nothing... At least, Adrian created a new era of peace and ended the cold war. How exposing him would change things to better.

Which is also funny because Rorschach and Veidt aren't all that different. Neither of them believes the system works and they both have a nearly pathological belief in their own righteousness and will use brutal means to achieve their goals. Veidt just has the intellect and resources to do it on a global scale.

>At least, Adrian created a new era of peace and ended the cold war. How exposing him would change things to better.
There is an argument to be made that Adrian's plans had holes in it, and getting behind the controversy before someone else finds out could help manage the damage control.

The difference is that Rorschach never sacrificed anyone for greater good. He isn't narcissist.

>also, Rorschach is a nazi, we're not arguing that
A nazi who turned out to be right.

No. Rorschach, despite having the hypocritical belief that the nukes on Japan were for the greater good, would never sacrifice the lives of innocents. He has a strong moral code. A biased one, to be sure, but strong nonetheless.

Veidt hasn't a moral code. He made the choice to murder millions of his own countrymen, kill his own subordinates, and scar many others for life. All for the greater good.

They are very different.

Dumbass, they know that Adrian had Rorschach killed and did nothing about it. They did nothing about all the murdering and bullshit Adrian did. They implicitly agreed that the ends justified the means, and let Adrian get off scot-free.
>At least, Adrian created a new era of peace and ended the cold war. How exposing him would change things to better.
Adrian was always full of himself from the very start. Manhattan exposes him as being an arrogant fuckwad at the end. Adrian didn't 'save the world,' he destroyed millions of lives in a grand conspiracy to save a world that he thought only he could save. There's no proof that there was even going to be a war in the first place. In fact, Adrian was actively accelerating the push towards war through his corporate holdings.

It popped the escapism bubble and laid out the ugly truth that superheroes would actually be really harmful to how a society operates.

>Dumbass, they know that Adrian had Rorschach killed and did nothing about it. They did nothing about all the murdering and bullshit Adrian did. They implicitly agreed that the ends justified the means, and let Adrian get off scot-free.
God you're a retard. They were caught up in their own grief, their entire city had been destroyed by a close ally. You're completely missing the nuance of the ending of books. Adrian didn't even order Rorschach to be killed, he was just going to figure it out once he became a problem; Manhattan did it without telling even Adrian.

Actually Miracleman did that. Watchmen wasn't about superheroes, it was about people dressing up in masks and still being flawed, fallible people. Plus a glowing blue naked nuclear physicist who miraculously achieved omnipotence.

Rorschach was committing suicide. If Manhattan hasn't killed him you think he could travel the Antarctic in a trenchcoat?

The difference is that Rorschach was only willing to sacrifice one person, the only person that anyone has any right to sacrifice.
Themselves.

>Adrian didn't even order Rorschach to be killed, he was just going to figure it out once he became a problem; Manhattan did it without telling even Adrian.
Adrian indicated it needed to be done, Manhattan followed through for him. Adrian isn't a retard. He knows what he manipulated Manhattan to do.
>You're completely missing the nuance of the ending of books.
There's no nuance here. They actively let Adrian go for what he did and decided to settle down and focus on themselves and their relationship.

Whether Rorschach could or couldn't make it isn't the point we're arguing. Dan and Laurie were so caught up in the fact that they'd been made complicit in an atrocity. They were in shock. It would be stupid and out of character for them to go
>Huh. I wonder where Rorschach is heading off to. Welp! Better go back to grieving!

Show me a comic that had an issue which was essentially a mirror of itself before Watchmen. Watchmen was interesting more because of the techniques it used than the story itself.

They couldn't pin Adrian without causing more chaos themselves. And Adrian has called Manhattan a wildcard in his planning; this alongside the fact that he went to go figure out how to deal with Rorschach leads me to believe that, no, Adrian was not manipulating Manhattan. Manhattan made the choice himself, for once.
>There's no nuance here.
Yes there is. They are all doing what they consider to be "the right thing", but it leads them all toward different paths.

the nuance is like the entire point of the book!

>At least, Adrian created a new era of peace
user, go back, read the page where Adrian talks to Jon for the last time the "Nothing ever ends" panel specifically, look at the Crystal Ball.

Not him, but I think you're right. His lack of narcissism is why nothing he could've done would've been of any merit. It takes some measure of self-worth, deceitfulness, and immorality to bring about an instantaneous and large-scale change. Morality for morality's sake isn't enough, which is why modern revolutionary movements are laughable. People are selfish, especially in a capitalistic and isolationist institution that promotes self-identity, and a good revolutionary/dictator/warlord needs a modicum of selfishness if he wants to bring about the change he wishes. Whether or not Rorshach's ideology was objectively right or wrong is invaluable to me because he died, but the method he went about it causing necessary change was flawed from the start. Oh well, nothing ever ends.

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You know we already have names for that right? It's called being prejudiced.

The Comedian was probably the only fascist in the group. He was committing extra-judicial killings on behalf of his government/executive.

Rorschach was pretty much the same except he was killing on behalf of his government.
Also there is nothing wrong with hating the degenerate scum.

He and Comedian were pretty much the only sane people left, Comedian got killed at the start of the book and Rorschach took a heroic death rather than be party to mass murder of innocents.

>They couldn't pin Adrian without causing more chaos themselves
Cause chaos? Retarded nigger, Adrian just convinced the entire world that aliens exist and every military is scrambling to fight a threat that isn't real, and societies are in fucking turmoil over this, all a fucking lie. Telling the truth would give closure and peace to the world, Adrian would hang, and that's that.
> And Adrian has called Manhattan a wildcard in his planning
A wildcard who acted exactly as he'd hoped and expected.
>Yes there is. They are all doing what they consider to be "the right thing", but it leads them all toward different paths.
No, there is no nuance when it comes to the right thing. Adrian committed an atrocity unlike any the world had ever seen, and needed to pay for his crimes.
The point of the book is that where morality is concerned, there is no room for nuance. If you say that Adrian was justified in doing what he did because of the nuances, then you are saying that mass murder of millions is fine if it's for a 'greater cause.' And you are exactly like Manhattan, Adrian, Dan, and Laurie for saying it. That's not nuance. That's called delusion.

>If you say that Adrian was justified in doing what he did because of the nuances, then you are saying that mass murder of millions is fine if it's for a 'greater cause.'

what is war tho? there's a reason that Moore brings up Truman in like the first few pages

>telling the truth would give closure and peace to the world, Adrian would hang, and that's that.
That is the most naive outcome possible, it's silly. You don't think the USSR would just continue it's campaign through the middle east? You don't think the rest of the world would hold the US responsible for such a deadly hoax, and become her enemy instead? It's just silly.
>A wildcard who acted exactly as he'd hoped and expected.
I suppose we should just agree to disagree.
>No, there is no nuance when it comes to the right thing. Adrian committed an atrocity unlike any the world had ever seen, and needed to pay for his crimes.
Except for that, at least in the short term, his plan worked. He came out as the hero of the human race, like he wanted, yet killed millions while doing so.
Rorschach wanted to give him justice, which is the right thing to do in his head, but would make the sacrifice of millions of Americans moot and would bring even more instability to the world. Manhattan knows this and kills Rorschach, what he thinks is the right thing to do in the situation.
Dan and Laurie are essentially stuck between a rock and a hard place. They're not hard-headed like Rorsch, so they're obviously not going to report Adrian. So their version of doing the right thing is remaining silent and just living their lives.

>what is war tho?
Unjustified, no shit Sherlock, it's almost like the book is anti-war.
>That is the most naive outcome possible
What the fuck are you talking about? What's naive is Adrian thinking that the USSR is going to stop being aggressive and all war is going to be ended forever because an alien popped up dead in NYC. Exposing a massive global conspiracy for what it is, bringing the man responsible to justice and making him pay for his crimes is the definition of rebuilding social stability. But this is all beside the point. You're just blindly assuming that there was going to be WWIII and that Adrian's plan was the only possible way it could be averted, which is exactly what Adrian assumed. You're falling into the same delusions as him.
> He came out as the hero of the human race,
Only in his own delusional fantasies.
> but would make the sacrifice of millions of Americans moot and would bring even more instability to the world.
No. It wasn't a sacrifice. And this is where your retardation makes itself evident. Adrian murdered millions. He deserved a worse fate than anyone who had ever lived. If real justice was served for one brief moment in Watchmen, maybe the world would be a little more stable for once. But through the entire book we see no justice, no actual moral righteousness. Rorschach is about to try and deliver some and he gets killed for it.
>So their version of doing the right thing is remaining silent and just living their lives.
There is no other 'version' of doing the right thing. There is only one thing that is right to do. Adrian must pay.

>what was so revolutionary about Watchmen?
The story, the characterisation, the layout, the designs, the worldbuilding and the adult, edgy, approach.

I think it's pretty evident that we're just not going to give in on our arguments, so I think we should just agree to disagree in general. No point in arguing if neither one of us is willing to change our minds.

kek there are plenty of people who hate all those groups without being a nazi. don't use words that you don't know the meaning of.

Manhattan was sanest of them all...