ITT we continue to talk about retcons that should have never happened. Yesterday featured Jason Todd not staying dead and the horseshit that ensued from that. Amongst some other topics. Today i start off with this fucker. A simple concept of an alien costume that is alive and corrupts its user. Everyone loves black suit spidey and Venom had a nice run as a "evil spiderman". I was never a fan of Lethal protector and thought they jumped the shark when we had the collection of Venom "flavors" like Shriek and shit. But this latest retcon with Knull and the necroblade and a symbiote God is just mind numbing. They could have done that story without tying Venom into it and making Eddie fucking Brock a possible Avenger that is sought after. Venom should have stayed a spidey exclusive character and the symbiotes should have stayed being parasites that just happen to come from space.
ITT we continue to talk about retcons that should have never happened...
Is it the lack of Jason Todd?
There should only be like 2 symbiotes active at a time. Carnage should have been retired years ago.
Tim Drake should have died for real last time, """Drake""" is just sad.
Falcon should have stayed Captain America or become American Eagle.
Carnage was always overrated. Having the symbiote be something that finds hosts to get back at Spiderman would be fine. But if you want two symbiotes user and there is no Carnage what is the other one you'd be ok with?
Tim Drake dying would have been just Todd dying again with even less of a chance of sticking. I dont really care about Falcon desu
Completely retconning Englehart's Star-Lord origin really pissed me off. I don't care that it was never explicitly canon, that's just a shitty thing to do.
In their defense could you see Chris Pratt in that costume?
>A simple concept of an alien costume that is alive and corrupts its user.
Correction: it doesn't corrupt shit originally. The corruption aspect is a retcon originating from the 90s series.
>Everyone loves black suit spidey and Venom had a nice run as a "evil spiderman".
Literally Broly tier motivation. Come to think of it, he's mostly praised for his design, too...
>I was never a fan of Lethal protector
I mean, at least they tried to spin Venom in another direction, but his character remained just as flat and lackluster.
>when we had the collection of Venom "flavors" like Shriek and shit.
This could've been fun if they were given any time to shine at all and weren't just a bunch of toy designs.
>ut this latest retcon with Knull and the necroblade and a symbiote God is just mind numbing.
Yeah, it's stupid
>They could have done that story without tying Venom into it and making Eddie fucking Brock a possible Avenger that is sought after.
I dunno, that seems fun
>the symbiotes should have stayed being parasites that just happen to come from space.
Once again, symbiotes were almost never canonically parasites.
>They could have done that story without tying Venom into it and making Eddie fucking Brock a possible Avenger that is sought after. Venom should have stayed a spidey exclusive character and the symbiotes should have stayed being parasites that just happen to come from space.
Nah fuck off. Symbiotes are too cool a concept to be wasted for a single Spidey rogue. It'd be like if vibranium only ever existed to explain Cap's shield and wasn't acknowledged otherwise. I get the vibranium wank can be kinda obnoxious at times but it adds a little flavor to the greater marvel universe and gives it a stronger sense of interconnectivity.
Bucky should never have come back. As much as people wank Brubaker, everything about Winter Soldier reeks of shitty fanfic OC.
Where is Sentry to end this Knullshit
I could easily see Chris Pratt's chin and mouth in that costume
The movie version is fine. Different, sure but I genuinely can appreciate why and how Gunn changes it basically mixing it with Starhawk's. Plus I always see the movies as alternate universes anyway.
My problem is with fucking Bendis and Humphries having the gall to say "lol his first appearance (and thus every story between it and annihilation) isn't canon (even though it was implied to be)" and then expecting us to eat up their abominable knockoffs of the proto/movie origin as the absolute canon. It's disrespectful and disingenuous as fuck.
>Sentient alien parasite suit that gives you enhanced abilities and shit , and is also a spurned lover that bonded with someone else who hated the same guy
Neat.
>Planet of the symbiotes: original suit is actually some freak for bonding with its host, we are shown that the main race assumes direct control and drains the hosts till they drop
Cool, interesting
>The fucking Klyntar retcon
Ewwww, fuck you Bendis
>Everything regarding Knull
Wha in the actual FUCK
The obvious one
>Magneto was never related to the twins and they aren't mutants
I'd like to make a blanket statement against cross media synergy based retcons.
Winter SoldierYeah
I think part of why that run is loved so much is that the character had been coming out of mediocre-at-best runs from the likes of Robert Kirkman and absolute trash from Christopher Priest and then Brubaker comes along and all of a sudden the book is fantastic. I am generally opposed to resurrections but if all of them were handled as well as Bucky Barnes, they wouldn't be so bad.
user, how well a lousy premise is executed is irrelevant. WS is a trash concept.
>There's this character who's a super deadly super soldier spy that has been around for decades, but never mentioned before and he has killed tons of people, but it's not his fault, because he was brainwashed and is plagued by DARKNESS and ANGST over his actions who are not at all his fault and he has a superbody and a cool metal arm and did I mention he's the best friend of captain america and an old lover of the black widow who she loved more than her canon husband, even though we've been shown she really did love Alexei and no one else at that time?
This isn't a character.
It's a shitty early 00s deviantart self insert OC.
WS IS TRASH.
Spider-Man is the king of shit retcons.
>Sins Past
>Spider Totem
>Peter can knock off every single villain’s jaw and totally could have since the very beginning please ignore the thought bubbles that say otherwise
>Everything that happened during the Clone Saga
>Any time they brought back dead villains
Marvel characters are subjected to mind control all the time, though. Plus to my recollection he was killing people in backwater Soviet SSRs, so who would notice?
>I'm not going to defend the Black Widow thing, though. Could've done without it.
I'm pretty convinced the Bru run was at least 75% sold on Epting's fucking gorgeous artwork.
That definitely didn't hurt.
It just bothers me to bring back Cap's dead partner for something as trivial as "He's now an edgy cyborg killer". Angst over getting Bucky killed was one of Cap's pillars of character, and now it's just... not there anymore. And I don't feel Winter Soldier adds anything to the Marvel Universe. There's already edgy cyborg assassins, there's alread avengers with mind control/brainwashing PTSD.
It's just such a bizarre fucking choice.
I always thought killing Cap and bringing him back a year or two later was worse than bringing back Bucky.
>Correction: it doesn't corrupt shit originally. The corruption aspect is a retcon originating from the 90s series.
It did. It didn't make Peter evil per se but it increased his strength dramatically and caused him to be more gung-ho. I'm not saying that he was Tobey in SPiderman 3. That's horseshit, but I read the run right after Secret Wars when he returns to Earth with it and he comments on the suit making him act differently and feeling stronger.
>Once again, symbiotes were almost never canonically parasites.
Again this is backed up in the Amazing run when he goes to Reed. Reed tells him that not only is the suit alive but it's symbiotic and feeding off of him. What it's feeding off of is left unsaid. So not a parasite because it gives you something back. Hence the name symbiote. But still icky.
>Symbiotes are too cool a concept to be wasted for a single Spidey rogue.
Whenever they have applied it to any other character it has been a shit storm. It's stupid for the simple reason that they keep the look of the symbiote taking over another character looking like the original Venom. That symbiote only looked like that because it was mimicing Peter's suit. Not because it actively looked that way. It's just a ball of goo
Winter Soldier is basically edgy Cap. I ironically like the concept and idea of using Bucky, but the in canon execution by tying it to a bunch of people like you pointed out, makes it trash. Having Bucky just fall off the face of the earth, no pun intended, and then becoming this thing and disappearing, and using the meta idea that he hasnt been seen or thought of since would have been much easier on canon and more realistic.
Cap being shot and Marvel going "No for real!" was just stupid. It was their protracted "Death of Superman". But they do that a lot. Wolverine dying? Hell even Wolverine's Origin story basically murdered the character,
Meh, the Venom stalks and beats up Spider-Man arc is only good once in my opinion, it needs to be resolved or else it would get old as fuck for both Spidey AND Venom fans. Venom does not work as a long time arch nemesis.
Venom works just fine moving onto being an anti-hero. Most people who don't like Venom complain that he doesn't have a reason to hate Spider-Man anyway....and that's kind of why he goes solo in the first place, it works as the conclusion to a crazy guy, making him revert back into a Spider foe is retarded, and like I said him being a Spider enemy can't go on forever, because he's just not that kind of character, Brock's whole thing was "Spider-Man is evil, I'm good".....that doesn't really work in the long term.
If you think Brock doesnt have long term legs or motivation to be Spidermans foe than you can apply that to almost anyone on his rogues gallery. Hell any other superhero's gallery too. Brock to me was always the proto chad to Peter. The guy who wants to be famous and be in the know and get the scoops but cant. But he doesnt have talent. Even getting the suit and having him become a meathead made him even more chad like. Brock is basically jealous of Peter and that has legs and can be ironic knowing Peter's life. Having him go the Kraven route to prove he is a better Spiderman than Peter would have been the way to go. Basically Superior Spiderman but without the ridiculous body switching angle. FUCK they have murdered Spiderman. Fucking body switching on top of everything else.
The symbiote was great when it was implied that it learned hate from being rejected. Correct me if Im wrong because Im only only going by amazing and not the other like...5 spidy titles at the time, but did symbiote spidy originally show any signs of evil? Because that really cheapens the story for me.
It didnt show signs of evil. It made Peter done the suit and fight crime when he was asleep so he would wake up more tired. But that's mainly because it likes being bonded to him and it figures that's what he does, fight crime. Basically the suit was bonding to him and liked him. Like a faithful dog. And it became evil when it was rejected.
>that they keep the look of the symbiote taking over another character looking like the original Venom.
What about killmonger? But yeah, just making them venom clones is fucking dumb and such a waste of potential. Why can't they just reflect their users personality? It would be a great way to keep bums like Scorpion relevant.
>It made Peter done the suit and fight crime when he was asleep
That's kinda cute in a goofy sort of way
Killmonger was the only time someone with sense drew it. And they always make them "evil" Venom to boot which makes no sense.
It’s not necessarily a retcon in the traditional sense, but I really hate when villains that actively gave Spidey hard time suddenly get turned into “lol he was a joke the whole time and Peter thinks they suck.” That only works on villains made to be jokes like Walrus and White Rabbit, it looks stupid when you try that on Scorpion or Shocker just because they aren’t Goblin, Ock, Venom, or Fisk.
it's just shifting writer/editor attitudes, they wanted a stronger Spider-Man so they decided that guys like Scorpion who could previously clobber him are joke-tier, making guys like Shocker even lower joke-tier
it's about respect for past work, they stretch this respect as far as they can until it starts getting in the way then they're fine with breaking it and doing stuff that shits all over said past work, as long as it suits the writer's/editorial's goals and especially if it's far enough in the past that the only people who would put up a fuss are 40+ years old
>we continue to talk about retcons that should have never happened
Ok, I'm going to poke the bear.
Jean should never have come back, the first time. Rachel Summers essentially filled her place.
BUT, once they did it and it became status qwo, fine. Fair enough.
It was much, much stupider for Morrison to kill her off again because now we are living in this never ending cycle of Jean/Phoenix/Scott/Logan death and resurrection that is just so fucking boring.
Jean should be with Wolverine already. This Ross and Rachel horseshit is annoying. Scott moved on twice already if not more. Let her have anew love interest. I mean they put her with Beast for fucks sake. Just give her a relationship with one dude and be done with it before she inevitable becomes gay also
venom as a villain has always been retarded, the symbiote itself was never evil and literally "died" protecting peter even when he shunned it and got his sense of justice, brock was never evil and only had a vendetta, them both being butthurt for a while is logical for a short period of time but not long term
Damn Wolverine snikting the fuck out right there
Lupines and Romulus himself had potential, but for some reason everything about how it was executed was shit.
>Romulus
Everything about him was retarded. Literally everything.
Both were retarded that's why it was retarded
On the subject of Venom I agree with Mcfarlane: the giant teeth and huge tongue ruined the original design. He was creepier as a "distorted" black suit Spider-man, making him too monstrous took away that uncanny valley effect
The twins being Magnetos kids is easily their best Origin, piss off
>>Peter can knock off every single villain’s jaw and totally could have since the very beginning please ignore the thought bubbles that say otherwise
But if you actually fucking read comics its obvious as hell thats Peters Super Strength has been nerfed overtime in favor of his speed becoming more pronounced. Personally I prefer the classic glass cannon spidey to modern "great evasion and endurance, but shit offense" spidey
I like the bulk McFarlane did on Venom. You can blame Erik Larsen for the bullshit that occurred afterward
Weren't they going with a "Parker pulls his punches on purpose" thing for awhile
I agree with your post more than OP's.
>If you think Brock doesnt have long term legs or motivation to be Spidermans foe than you can apply that to almost anyone on his rogues gallery.
The difference is that most of the other villains have stronger premises. Venom's (if you go by the original comic) is that Eddie Brock blamed Spider-Man for something that wasn't even really his fault. Eventually, that has to get fully resolved because it makes Eddie look fucking smoothbrained. Now, if you had like the 90's cartoon origin that would've made more sense.
It was portrayed as disturbing, which anons here are downplaying. it was also more violent than awake Peter, almost killing crooks
>Jean should be with Wolverine
Fuck you, fuck you, and most importantly, fuck you. Logan is a hairy old creep, and he should have never got with Jean, but writers are faggots with shit taste in their perversions
Peter could kill with a single punch and was strong enough to lift the Hulk. HOWEVER a punch from a normal guy could hurt him. Personally, I liked that status quo. Stakes were higher because anytime he was too distracted to obey his spider sense he was immediately in trouble, which is good for drama
I wish there was a name for the different kinds of retcons.
A literal retcon, retroactive continuity, just adds in information. While it can change the context of some events, it's generally not huge. See: Spider-Man's black suit was retroactively revealed to be an alien the entire time. I call these soft retcons.
And then there is retcons that people usually refer to, which just completely undo events, possibly huge ones. I call these hard retcons.
>because now we are living in this never ending cycle of Jean/Phoenix/Scott/Logan death and resurrection that is just so fucking boring.
I think it's more of an X-Men problem than just one character. I know Marvel doesn't want a reset, but X-Men really feels like it should have one. X-Men highlights the WORST shit in comics imo, much more so than other series out there, thats just what i think tho
>If you think Brock doesnt have long term legs or motivation to be Spidermans foe than you can apply that to almost anyone on his rogues gallery.
Not really, considering most of Spider-Man's rogues are career criminals, crime is just what they do. Brock was never a criminal before becoming Venom, and his crime as Venom was basically his own twisted version of vigilantism in the name of killing Spider-Man, referring to the innocents he killed during that time obviously, not any of the crooks since he'd keep doing that anyway. Either way, he's already non comparable to guys like Electro and Vulture who just live crime or guys who relish in being evil like Osborn or Cletus. If you were to just keep going with the "Brock thinks Spider-Man is bad" thing for decades you either enter flanderization territory of Brock becoming a canon retard and parody of himself who can't have any progression at all, or you write him to just realize what he's doing and be pure evil, which goes against everything set up in his original stories where he was supposed to have a warped moral code, making him just a generic badguy which is not interesting.
Geneirc badguy Venom = Gargan Venom and late 90s/early 00s amnesia Venom. Both of these were very, very bad, and in a lot of cases the reason why many more casual readers think Venom is a shitty generic one note villain who only lives to be edgy and eat brains.
>Brock is basically jealous of Peter and that has legs and can be ironic knowing Peter's life. Having him go the Kraven route to prove he is a better Spiderman than Peter would have been the way to go.
I mean, I don't know...Venom works fine as an anti-hero to me as it is and would still clash with Pete sometimes anyway, I don't know how making his vigilantism be all about showing up Peter Parker would improve his character at all, if anything that's more cliche and would prove people right that Venom is just "dark Spidey" which he's not
P. much
Yeah but it still didn't make Peter evil, the whole "symbiotes make you corrupted" is something that's only been done in adaptions in order to simplify the story and make Peter seem more heroic and Venom more villainous.
Scott a wimp
In modern Marvel continuity doesn't matter anyway
Worst retcons?
All the Aaron stuff with Thor.
Nick Fury Jr.
Sin's Past.
Everything about Original Sin (though everyone now pretends it didn't happen)
Jessica Jones
Sentry
Anything where they go "Oh but there was this super secret conspiracy all along" like Hickman's stupid-ass SHIELD mini.
I recently listened to an interview with Gerry Conway and they asked him about his thoughts on Sin's Past. He did not seem like a fan of it.